doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Velocity of 1890's English Pheasant Loads?

I read Ralph Galleyway's "The Merits of Chokes and Cylinders", and he talks about the potential to fold birds at 50 yards with #6 English shot, that seems a bit far to me, but I'm open to being further educated. I had read somewhere that the English shot-shell standard velocity was 1050 fps because it patterned the best, in my mind that's too slow to kill pheasants at 50 yards with #6 English shot. Anyone know what the velocity would have been? I'm assuming this would be a black powder load, and not over 1200 fps, but the 1050 fps supposed "standard" seems off to me.

If the birds were driven and incoming exposing the breast, they would be alot easier to kill. I've hammered North Dakota pheasants with #5s going away and they are hard to bring down from behind.
Karl

The case label with a c. 1880 William Sumners, Liverpool 12b specified Curtis & Harvey No. 5 Black Powder:
�Light� - 2 3/4 Dram with 1 oz. shot (1180 fps)
�Medium� - 3 Dram with 1 1/8 oz. shot (1200 fps)
�Heavy� - 3 1/4 Dram with 1 1/4 oz/ shot (1220 fps)

Lord Walsingham
�On August 30, 1888 when I killed 1,070 grouse to my own gun in the day, I shot with four breechloaders. No.1, a gun made in 1866 by Purdey, subsequently converted from pin-fire to central principle, to which new barrels were made last year. Nos.2 and 3, a pair of central fire breechloaders, made also by Purdey, about 1870, for which I have likewise had new barrels. No.4, a new gun made by Purdey this year to match the two mentioned above, but with Whitworth steel instead of Damascus barrels. The guns are all 12 bore, with cylinder 30 in. barrels, not choked.�
�My cartridges were loaded by Johnson, of Swaffham; those used in the down-wind drives containing 3 1/8 drs. Hall�s Field B powder to 1 1/8ozs. No. 5 Derby shot; those used in the up-wind drives (where the birds, of course, came slower) had 3 drs. only of the same powder, with the same shot; not hardened shot in either case.�

1896 Lancaster
�E.C.� No. 1 42 grains = 3 Dram with 1 1/8 oz. shot

A 1906 Holland & Holland hang tag specified the gun was regulated for 42 grains �Schultze� = 3 Dram with 1 1/16 oz. shot.

The standard 2 1/2� 12g British load according to the 1907 edition of Greener's The Gun was 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 dram (1255 fps).

BTW: UK 6 = .10" = US 7; UK 5 = US 6

Dr. Drew Hause, I don't mean to change the subject, but I acquired a hammer SxS shotgun made by William Sumners a few months ago. Would you like to share a pic of the case label? Also, any other information you can share on Mr Sumners and any gun pics, it would be most appreciated. Thank you in advance. BillK

For many years the British reported their velocity as "Observed Velocity". The velocities were measured by a Boulogne Chronograph which could not measure extremely small time intervals so the start screen was at the muzzle & the stop screen at 20 yds. This observed velocity of 1050fps over 20 yards was the standard loading & translated to an actual muzzle velocity of close to 1300 fps.
In some old US data you will see even lower velocities listed. We measured during this time frame over 40 yds. With the advent of electric Counter Chronographs the required time intervals were shortened so measurements began to be taken much closer to the muzzle so naturally show higher velocities for the same loading.

Bill: it may have been here, but the images are gone
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381868&page=1

Thank you for that clarification Miller.
More here
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&dq
Velocity at 40 yds. 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram C&H No. 5 868 fps/ "Schultze" 875 fps

And to confuse us further, U.S. speed was reported at 40 yds.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer �Super-X The Long Range Load� by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g �Duck Load� (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X �Field�) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard�s conversion.
Askins may have used a bit of marketing hyperbole compared to Wallace Coxe.

The 1928 edition of �Smokeless Shotgun Powders� by Wallace Coxe, ballistic engineer of the Burnside Laboratory of the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads (1275 fps) and 40 yard fps:
(NOTE: pressures were measured by crushers (LUP) and modern transducer measurement pressures would be 10 � 14% higher)
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi, 943 fps
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi, 941 fps
28 grains of Ballistite Dense smokeless powder - 12,600 psi, 966 fps
(All 3 are greater than the SAAMI 12g 2 3/4� recommended maximum pressure of 11,500 psi.)
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi, 981 fps.

Bill, Drew,

Just for clarification I do not have a case label for Sumners. If one can be found I would appreciate a copy.

Again, sorry for going OT, but this is what IGC has on Sumner:

Name William Sumners
Other Names W Sumners & Son
Address1 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead
Address2 48 Oldhall Street
Address3 48 & 50 Oldhall Street
City/Town Liverpool
County Lancashire
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1858-1890?

Notes

William Sumners (b.1826 in Liverpool) is known to have worked for Williams & Powell, he may have been apprenticed to them. He was recorded in the 1841 census as a 15 year old apprentice gun maker living with his parents, John (b.1781 a furniture broker) and Mary (b.1793) Sumners, and his twin sister. William left Williams & Powell in 1858 to establish his own business at 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead. He was recorded in the 1861 census living at 219 Oliver Street with his wife, Mary J (b.1829) and three daughters, Helen (b.1853), Mary (b.1855) and Kate (b.1857).

He was recorded at this address up to 1860. He does not seem to have been recorded in the 1871 census. In about 1875 he was recorded at 48 Oldhall Street. In the 1881 census he was recorded at this address. Another son and daughter had been born, John in 1862 and Blanch in 1866, but between 1866 and 1881 his first wife, Mary J had died and he had married Jane (b.1831 in Whitehaven). In this census he described himself as a master gunmaker and William Jnr, aged 21, as a gun maker. In about 1883 the firm's address became 48 & 50 Old Hall Street and at about this time he made his son a partner in the business which was re-named William Sumners & Son. The firm appear to have closed in about 1890.

I have two trade label versions. If you'd like me to send you copies, please send me a PM with your email address and I shall oblige.

Tim

So all these years I've been told light pressure, lower velocity loads, it was based on information which many mistook. I can't recall any recommendations for 1300 fps loads. I do recall a lot of sub 1200 fps loads. And pressures in the 11k range are well above as well. I understand this was for specific hunting in long range or high birds. Maybe it was just to be kind to old stocks. 1300 fps who knew?