doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Riddle me this: W Richards...

I bought this today. I think it's lovely, but it has me a bit perplexed... I've got a few ideas about what it is/was (now a 12g shotgun, but I don't think that's how it started...), but I wonder what others think; and what should I have paid for it?!:






















[img]http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt146/cadet450/IMG_1342_zps5npby5xt.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt146/cadet450/IMG_1343_zpsiuloajkr.jpg[/img]

aaaand the ones which didn't show for some reason...:

IGC gives the following info regarding W(illiam) Richards around the time at 61 Oldhall St:

"The 1851 census records Henry as a 29 year old gun maker living at 11 Aston Street, Birmingham, with his wife Hannah (b.1821 in Birmingham) and their children, Jane (b.1842), Susanna (b.1845) and Westley (b.1847). All the children were born in Birmingham which suggests that when William (II) went to Liverpool to open the retail side of the business, Henry remained in Birmingham to run the manufacturing operation. Also recorded living with Henry and Hannah was Henry's younger brother, William Henry, aged 23 and described as a gun maker. William (II) was recorded in 1857 at 51 Oldhall Street.He appears to have retired or died in that year because Henry was recorded 51 Oldhall Street from 1858. An address of 53 Oldhall Street has been seen on a gun bearing the name W Richards so it would appear that he owned or rented both 51 and 53 Old hall Street.

In the 1861 census Henry was recorded living at 61 Old Hall Street with Hannah and their children. Henry and Hannah were probably married in about 1840 because Jane had been born in 1842 and a previously unrecorded daughter, Emily, had been born in 1850. Susannah (b.1845) and Westley (b.1847) were not recorded and both appear to have died. Another son named William had been born in Birmingham in 1853. It would seem that William and Hannah moved to join William (II) in Liverpool between 1853 and 1855 because another daughter living with them in 1861 was Suzanna who was born in 1855 in Liverpool as were two more sons, Henry (b.1857) and Westley (b.1859). The Henry born in 1857 seems to have died because the 1871 census below shows a Henry (Harry) born in 1863/4.

The name "Westley" is frequently found together with the name "Richards", but although a connection is likely with the famous Birmingham firm of Westley Richards none has been found. In the 1871 census Henry and Hannah were recorded living at Brickfield Cottage, Lower Lane, Fazackerley, Liverpool together with their children, William (aged 18), Susanna (aged 16), Westley (aged 10) and Henry (aged 7) were recorded but Emily was not. In about 1878 Henry moved the firm to 27 Old Hall Street."

So the 61 appears to indicate that Henry Richards may have been responsible for this gun, between 1861 and 1871. Brown has no record of 61 in his book. Those dates tie in with the London proof marks.

Tim

The following may help or hinder:
- the rib address is 51 Old Hall St; the barrel flats read 61 (that's not a typo, they are different...);
- yes, under a magnifying glass that is a solitary Belgian mark on the flats;
- there is evidence of reshaping around the fences - a fine line in the metal and discolouration a bit like the shell fences have been brazed on;
- The chambers are about 2 5/8", with an abrupt step down to smooth bores which measure about .730" and .733", with no choke;
- hammers are rebounding; firing pins are sprung...

Thanks TRW, that gets me on the way...

Perhaps it started life as a pin fire?

A gun of this era stamped as a "13" should have had a bore diameter that would take a .710" gage but not a .729" one. The 13/1 (.719") mark was not introduced until 1887. It has likely been enlarged just a bit. My guess would be the barrel blanks were imported from Belgium & that the single proof is the provisional proof mark. "IF" you intend to fire it make certain he shell used is not longer than the chamber, thus the crimp unfolding into the bore itself. The practise of firing guns with shells slightly longer than the chambers is "Dependant" on the gun having normal forcing cones rather than an abrupt step.
What about it indicates it started life as anything other than a 12 gauge shotgun?

Cadet,

Given my recent survey of the Ozzie market of used Vintage Doubles, I suspect that when you tell us what you paid for it we'll all (up here in the States) be very envious. It's obviously a beautiful high-grade gun, I hope you have it tightened up and have a chance to shoot it. Peninsula back-action locks and a Jones underlever. How more "Classic" can you get?

Why don't you think it started as a 12 gauge? The "13" markings on the barrels? Thinner-walled brass cases were common during this gun's time of manufacture.

I'll hazard a guess and say that the barrels are a 2-iron Crolle variant.

Perhaps Ballantine's has shorter, low-pressure shells?

Regards
Ken

lovely old gun...

could be a safe and fun shooter with the addition of briley 20 gauge tubes?

For value, based on the photos and description, I'd opine BV3-OQ6-CC6 = $984. That is Brand Value level three for W. Richards, Original Quality grade six for a second/"A" grade hammer gun, and Current Condition level six (shootable, but needs some repairs and refinishing).

DDA