doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sauer & Sohn made Manhattan Arms Co. SxS 16ga.

I have discovered that the old gun that hung above my father's hunting room is a old german made SxS. It has "fine damascus barrels" and I am interested in restoring it. I have done some research and believe that it was made by Sauer and Sohn in the 1880s to 1890s. The proof marks have S&S and a man holding a staff. All the numbers match and the gun is in working order.

However my study has not settled what the gun looked like from the factory. One restorer i consulted said everything from Sauer was black and white damascus. Another said that all german guns of that era were brown and white finished. There seems to be some consensus on the sidelock mechanism. Everyone says that it was case colored.

I am interested in restoration of the gun and want to get it right. Any information on this gun would be of great help.
Thanks in advance.

I'd question the "one restorer" as the ones I have and have seen are a plum/brown and white. I guess that it has a serial number on the left side of the rear lug in near the 31,000 range and it more than likely isn't a sidelock if it has an inverted "L" pin configuration, but a hybrid between a boxlock & sidelock. Case colours more than likely with varnish/coating. Pleasure us with some pics. I almost forgot: check out/tap "Finish-Restore" at http://www.damascus-barrels.com for instructions?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/armthree/2picturesforyouofmanhattanarmsproofs#5392541654195136050[/img]

I have included a photo of the proof marks. I will include others when i can. The serial number is 55301 so i may have bad info on the date it was built.

I looked at damascus-barrels.com and it was interesting. I am not sure if I want to do it myself.

I do not want to spend $800 on a restoration of a $250 gun either!

One of our members who is a noted Sauer authority has compiled a listing of serial numbers and the date made. It indicates your gun was made in 1895. A photo or two of the side of the gun at the lock area would be helpful in distinguishing between sidelock and boxlock. Sauer made both, lots more boxlocks than sidelocks, but I have several sidelocks from the time period of your gun.

I took some photos of the area that you suggested. I have been thinking it was a sidelock, but could easily be mistaken. Hope that this helps with identification. Where can i find the serial number listing?

I am also making the assumption that it is a 16 ga since a 12 does not fit and a 20 it too small. When i put a 16 ga shell in it the fit is NEARLY perfect. (I have not nor do i intend to shoot it with modern shells; no worries.)

Thanks in advance for all the help.

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/armthree/2009_09_29#5392666993357265506[/img]

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/armthree/2009_09_29#5392667012215770034[/img]

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/armthree/2009_09_29#5392667039386885106[/img]

http://picasaweb.google.com/armthree/2009_09_29#5392667052852209554

Your gun looks to be in very good, unmolested condition and should be worth more simply cleaned up rather than restored. If it were my gun I'd wipe it down with some Ballistol, let it sit a day, wipe it down again and see how it looked. From the photos I don't see any major rust just some honest patina, which in my opinion adds character. Ballistol will not harm wood. Go to a Joann's or Michael's craft store and pick up a bottle of refined linseed oil and a bottle of distilled turpentine in the artist's section. Start with some turpentine on a papaer towel and wipe the stock down. Once you think most of the surface grime is off, continue with a 50/50 mix of turp/RFO. RFO dries pretty quickly (in a day or so)but be careful not to layer up the oil without drying. Paper towel works great for removing excess. This process will rejuvenate the wood. Lastly, it appears that the screws have not been turned. DO NOT attempt to turn them without the proper screw bits. You'll likely need Brownell's thin bit set. The gun probably needs a good internal cleaning to remove old, hardened oil. Leave this to a qualified double gunsmith. It will cost you probably $150 for this service but it is well worth it and the 'smith can give you an assessment of the condition/safety of the gun. Post some pics after the clean up. You have a nice gun.

Strictly by the lack of proofhouse proofmarks, I don't see any; therefore, it would be a pre-1893 longarm. So this might be an exception to the serial number list. But it was slated to take a boat ride to a country that didn't have a prooflaw, so it is possible that it was made post 1893 but I would expect to see at least some preliminary proof stamps. Interesting that it has "Thuringia" on the flats, which became a part Germany in 1871.


It's not a sidelock or a boxlock but is something inbetween as the hammer is in the wood while the mainspring is in the bar. The scear and accoutrements, including cocking indicators?, are mounted on the sideplate. The inverted "L" pin configuration is the tell-tale sign. It was a quality piece worthy of being shot today as it has the stamp set of Sauer crowns noting craftsmenship and shoot performance as well as bushed and disk set strikers. Empirically data was acquired thru time and effort being expended in actually patterning the example. I haven't looked closely, but there looks to be a set or 2, 3 or 4 cavemen with a staff(a quality mark???) on the underside of the left tube near the "5301" stamp. I'd probably put it in a steady state now, as per the excellent description above, and use it but there is the option of restoration. Any yes, invest in a good set of turnscrews. RST and Polywad( http://www.polywad.com ) are sources for 65mm ammo. I checked Mr. Jim Cate's Sauer text and there's a gap in his serial number data from say 53k to 56k in the serial numbers. Mr. Cate of Chattanooga has a very good reference.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse