I came across a German drilling gun, with two shotgun barrels on top and a rifled barrel underneath. It has a golden "GE CO" in front of the toplever pin. Folded rear poop sight and a triangular front sight. Have some pictures available. Cannot lay my hands on it. Would appreciate for any information on the manufacturer and model.
I am new here and do not khow how to enter an image.
Haibin
Forward the images to me & I'll gladly post them for you. GECO is an acronym for Gustav(e) Genschow Company, who sourced their wares.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Have a look of the photos at the following address. Thanks a lot.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fle9.htmlWith best wishes,
Haibin
Beijing
It's a Kerner-Anson variant with some nice stock work. Yes the pin atop the frame is a cocking indicator for the rifle tube. The scattergun tubes have blade type indicators on the sides. Would need to see the flats & frame stamps to point toward a maker.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I am very grateful for your prompt and informative reply. Well, next I need to contact the curator of the Museum where the shotgun is exhibited.
There are several other shotguns on display. Would appreciate it if you provide information on the following:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fmcv.htmlThe most curious thing about this shotgun is that it bears HOLLAND HOLLAND on its right sideplate (cannot see left side) but H&H confirmed me that it is definitely not their product.
The sporting weapon with the H&H is actually German and utilizes Holland & Holland style locks, that is if it is a sidelock as it actually looks like a sideplate. The SuS is a monogram for J.P. Sauer & Sohn, but I'd need to see the marks in full to say if it originated at the Sauer facility. Some could have just applied a Sauer & Sohn butt-plate. I am curious of this display at the Museum. Is it a repository, just a safe place to house them or is is required by law?
Forgot to note that the interlocked 3 Ringe Trademark is that of Krupp's Weapons Grade Steel that was an exclusive mark applied and allowed by J.P. Sauer & Sohn, being the only source for that tube steel.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Edgar Strempel 1955 example
I'm not sure if it points to him or not, but post WWII some examples of Edgar Strempel of Suhl wear the Orig. Holland-Holland stamp on the locks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thank you very much for so useful information. Armed with your points, I have to get back to the shotgun again to look for other feathers that I have overlooked.
For this shotgun I can see vaguely a third fastner. It does not look like a Greene's crossbolt. I wonder if it is a Doll's head or Scott's crossbolt?
Both drilling and Holland Holland shotgus are exhibited at the Beijing Police Museum. There are other shotguns displayed there, foe example, a semiautomatic shotgun with Belgian proof marks on it. The former owners are all government and military high officials. I wonder if you would be so kind as to look at them?
With best wishes,
Haibin
The Edgar Strempel Suhl example may have a hidden crossbolt but my 1st guess would be a Purdey nose. I do not think that a Doll's head fastner to be present. Another tid-bit of info is that this Edgar Strempel 2 tubeset, has a GECO butt-pad.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Found an image. So this 1955 Edgar Strempel with a GECO butt-plate and some Cyrillic word does have a hidden Greener crossbolt.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Might be the same engraver as below?? No, closer inspection negates the possibility of a sideplated example. Locks have a different pin configuration from below and the term orig.(original) is not persent.
Tale purported by listing on Edgar Strempel, Suhl 1955 example
"he(Strempel) made guns for the Soviet leaders. The consignor's notes state that Edgar Strempel employed and/or worked closely with 2 of the most famous European engravers- Karl Kolb and Richard Schilling, the well known and sought after locksmith Guido Kessel and the best actioner August Wuelfing. The stock was made by Ernst and Karl Roell. Walter Schilling was the metal finisher/bluer. The consignor's notes also state that this shotgun was probably made for Nikolai Bulganin who became Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the Russian SFSR in 1955. Somehow this shotgun came into possession of Leonid Brezhnev after he became the leader of the Soviet Union in 1964. This shotgun was possibly confiscated from Bulganin after he fell into disgrace and was excluded from the Central Communist Party. Brezhnev then made a gift of this shotgun to the then President of the Soviet Armenian Republic, Anton Kochinyan during a state visit to Armenia In 1969."
Dear Raimey,
I am positively amazed by your profound knowledge of German shotguns. I have a sample of the wonderful photos from your photobucket address. It will take me a while to appreciate them all.
Would you care to take a look of other two shotguns? Sorry they are not German ones. Thanks.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fn1i.htmlhttp://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fn0x.htmlWith kind regards,
Haibin
The J.P. Sauer & Sohu shotgun was a gife from Russian Marshal Kliment Voroshilov to Chinese leader in 1957. It makes somebody wonder why a Russian would send out a German shotgun as a gift (on another occasion he sent out a probably MC-6). Your last response explains convincely.
Correct. Edgar Strempel & the mechanics in Suhl(& Zella-Mehlis) were some of the top shelf gunmakers period. They were trained by the best of the best so what else could you expect. After the Germans made the Russians mad in WWII, the Russians had Suhl under their thumb and at 1st many sporting weapons were made for Russian officers by Edgar Strempel & Otto Rief, who was an auto racer at Simsom & I think had Strempel or someone else to source his sporting weapons. The Russians could have sourced a sporting weapon from Tula but why reinvent the wheel when they have been making wheels for a very long time in Suhl? There was already a link established between the gunmaking centres of Suhl & Tula.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The purported French boxlock looks to be a Kerner-Anson variant but I don't know. It has had a rough life even after the head of the stock was pinned. I'd say it was a price-point weapon out of St. Etienne. Images of the marks on the flats will point to the gunmaking centre.
I'm not much of a trombone fella, but the Winchester Modell 1897(John Browning design) looks to be one that was produced during demand in WWII and then filtered/pressed into military or police service elsewhere. Then serial number on the underside at the frame/tube juncture will date it.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Here's an Otto Reif thread and the engraving/inlay/tube & wood adornment look something similar. I'll try to bring some images over & compare:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=300178&page=allKind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Beijing Police Museum example
Otto Reif example from 1947 - 12, 16 & 20 bore and I think one of the 20 bore tubes is rifled. Holland-Holland on locks.
Holland-Holland(H&H) must have been an advertising ploy. I'd really like to know the text on the top rib of the Beijing Police Museum example . Pin configuration looks to be very similar?? Without a doubt, the same talent performed the tap, tap, tap on the metal adornment. Note the same ivory/mother of pearl inlay behind the locks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Dear Raimey,
I paid another visit to the Polic Museum and saw my lucky star there. They put in another shotgun in the glass case there the Otto Reif Strempel is exhibited. In the new arrangement they put the Strempel right side down, exposing the left side for the first time. Here are three more photos of the engraving, monogram and stock with cheekpiece.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fnmo.htmlWith best wishes,
Haibin
Dear Raimey,
It is interesting to find out today that on the said French sporting piece, I have seen "Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre" on the right barrel, there are two words on the left barrel, which I cannot decipher. In this case, is it a Belgian or French shotgun?
Best wishes,
Haibin
I also wonder if you like a direct means of communication, such as e-mail.
Haibin
Yes, see my contact info. Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre is FN, so Liege Belgium.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Dear Raimey,
I paid another visit to the Polic Museum and saw my lucky star there. They put in another shotgun in the glass case there the Otto Reif Strempel is exhibited. In the new arrangement they put the Strempel right side down, exposing the left side for the first time. Here are three more photos of the engraving, monogram and stock with cheekpiece.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_3ec4d3090101fnmo.htmlWith best wishes,
Haibin
I'd hazard a guess that Otto Reif was involved in this piece too and that there are Simson Triangle/trademarks on the frame. And as throughout the thread, Edgar Strempel of Suhl was in the pool of talented mechanics that executed this piece.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
But with all involved in the case, it is most difficult to ID from afar. The best that can be ascertained is thru correlation only so the origin can be narrowed but not truly defined unless the marks are made visible. But pretty neat to view for afar a gun display in Beijing.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Beijing Police Museum example
Otto Reif example from 1947
Barella
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post327959It will take a bit, but I think the above pin configuration to be similar(maybe not but it is a start) but let me ponder.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Beijing Police Museum example
Britte finished by SDH-MT
Christophe
Closer but still not exact pin configuration?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I found the following on Otto Reif Suhl in an April 19th, 1951 article & it may take a bit to extract any more & correct but it is a riot.
"Thursday, April 19, 1951 Otto Reif Wins Divorce From East Germany Gunsmith Safe In West Berlin BERLIN, April Iff.--(£)--Otto Reif has won his divorce from East Germany and Communist life, after a bitter battle. Sixty-six year old Reif, one of the world's greatest gunsmiths, is safe in West Berlin with his family and his best workers, his tools and all he needs to start life again. Reif made shotguns all his life in Suhl, Thuringia, one of Europe's gun centers. He made them for the Kaiser and for the Nazi hunters. There was nothing political in old Otto's guns until Communism came along. A while before Stalin's birthday, in December, 1949, the Russians came to Otto and said: "We want the finest shotgun ever made for Generalissimo Stalin's birthday. Ivory stock. Gold engraving and some jewels. What will it cost?" Reif asked for time and calculated. Two sets of matched guns. He came back with an estimated 65,000 marks. The East mark in such a case cannot be calculated in dollars. An East mark is worth only about one-fifth of the west mark on the black market but the fact is it buys what a man needs in the east zone where the average worker gets 150 to 200 marks monthly. The Russians told Reif that was a satisfactory deal. He made the guns and eventually brought them, in push cases, The Russian officers admired them, accepted delivery and told Reif to beat it. Months went by and it became clear no payment would be made. He was almost ruined. By putting in 15 and 16 hour days himself, and scrimping on every conceivable item, Reif managed to keep his business from folding up. About six- months after, ( lie episode, he was able to sight and reckon he had recovered from the financial blow. Then the German Communist leadership walked into the shop. One of them said: "We understand you made shotguns for Marshal Stalin. You forgot to pay the luxury tax....
....The money comes from oil and Another 65,000 marks. . Reif was aghast, and said: ' "But I'll be ruined." -Obviously you are not a good businessman," the Communists said. "It is apparent the state should operate your shops on a much more business-like basis." That's when Otto had enough. Little by little he started to move his prizes out of the Russian zone into West Berlin and finally came over himself. His Suhl works is now a "people's owned" shop but the art of Reif's gun-making is gone. Those who possess it are in West Berlin with the old master. The Allied Military Security Board has given Reit a license to manufacture shotguns. "I wonder," he muses. "Did Stalin ever get those guns?""
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks for posting Raimey. Have you found anything noting how long Reif continued to work as a gunsmith after arriving in West Berlin?
Mark
Baumgarten:
I believe the above to all be fiction or a lie. Dietrich has info that notes Otto Reif of Suhl was a scoundrel and was run out of Suhl on a rail. So said divorce was more like a purging. I believe I can safely say that when Otto Reif of Suhl fled East Germany he lost his mechanics, and possibly his connection with Edgar Strempel, and he couldn't fill any orders as he couldn't file his way out of a wet paper bag. I have yet to see his name & the term büchsenmacher in the same sentence, in any registers or the like.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
HD(Humpty Dumpty) is correct and post WWII they paid little attention to titles or job descriptions:
Raum Suhl/ Zella-Mehlis
Simson u. Co. / Gustloffwerke Suhl (4941201) [1925 - 1946; 15 lfm + 3 Negativfilme über Bestand]
J. P. Sauer und Sohn (4941202) [1818 - 1947; 5,8 lfm]
C. G. Haenel Suhl (4941203) [1843 - 1950; 5,4 lfm]
Otto Reif Suhl (4941204) [1934 - 1951; 1 lfm]
Greifelt und Co. (4941205) [1881 - 1949; 0,5 lfm]
Gebr. Merkel (4941206) [1924 - 1950; 0,8 lfm]
Fritz Kieß u. Co. GmbH, Suhl (4941207) [1944 - 1951; 0,1 lfm]
W. Zieglarsky Metallwarenhandel Suhl (4941208) [1923 - 1968; 1,0 lfm]
Rudolf Popp, Benshausen (4941209) [1805 - 1945; 0,3 lfm]
H. Weihrauch Zella-Mehlis (4941210) [1923 - 1948; 0,8 lfm]
E. Hemming Benshausen (4941211) [1934 - 1952; 0,4 lfm]
Friedrich Wilhelm Heym, Waffenfabrik Suhl (4941212) [1923 - 1968; 0,1 lfm]
Luck u. Wagner Suhl (4941213) [1933 - 1949; 0,3 lfm]
Wissner AG Zella-Mehlis (4941214) [1892 - 1948; 10 lfm]
Andreas Jopp Zella-Mehlis (4941215) [1908 - 1948; 1 lfm]
Karl Büchel Zella-Mehlis (4941216) [1936 - 1948; 1,5 lfm]
F. R. Langenhan Zella-Mehlis (4941217) [1886 - 1949; 0,5 lfm]
Hugo Funk Söhne Zella-Mehlis (4941218) [1911 - 1949; 3 lfm]
Gebr. Kerner Suhl (4941219) [1936 - 1945; 1 lfm]
VEB Ernst-Thälmann-Werk Suhl (4941220) [1920 - 1988; 20,8 lfm]
VEB Fahrzeug- und Jagdwaffenwerk Kombinat für Zweiradfahrzeuge Suhl (4941221) [1969 - 1990; 271,5 lfm]
VEB Fahrzeugteilewerk Zella-Mehlis (4941222) [1949 - 1958; 2,1 lfm]
VEB Pedalwerk Suhl (4941223) [1948 - 1950; 0,8 lfm]
Albert Wilhelm Wolf, Jagdgewehr-Fabrik Suhl (4941224) [1949 - 1976; 1,3 lfm]
VEB MEWA Ernst-Thälmann-Werk I Suhl (4941225) [1948 - 1957; 6 lfm]
VEB MEWA Fortuna-Werk II Suhl (4941226) [1946 - 1953; 0,32 lfm]
VEB MEWA Jagdgewehr- und Lehrenbau Werk IIII Suhl (4941227) [1948 - 1957; 0,6 lfm]
VEB MEWA Gebr. Merkel Werk IV Suhl (4941228) [1948 - 1954; 0,62 lfm]
VEB MEWA Lehrbetrieb "Geschwister Scholl" Werk V Suhl (4941229) [1949 - 1953; 0,2 lfm]
VEB Jagdwaffenwerk "Hubertus" Suhl (4941230) [1953 - 1977; 1 lfm]
VEB Simson Suhl (4941231) [1945 - 1969; 63,1 lfm]
VEB August-Bebel-Werk Zella-Mehlis (4941232) [1909 - 1990; 112,5 lfm]
VEB Fahrzeug- und Jagdwaffenwerk, BT Schwarza (4941233) [1970-1980; 0,1 lfm]
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
Based on Otto Reif's reputation as a scoundrel/ne-re do well my wording "... continued to work as a gunsmith" gave credit to were credit was not due but I was just wondering if he continued on as many cats do after being thrown from the highest buildings, much like many of our politicians. It reads as though 1951 was pretty much it for the old boy.
Mark
Nah, that cat was a famed Simson club car racer who founded some type of firm in 1934 and then capitalized in the post WWII chaos to rise to the top by providing the unknowing Russians with examples that were cobbled together from pre-WWII quality components. I could easily be mistaken, but I have strong suspicions that Otto Rief Suhl had Edgar Strempel or some other most talented mechanic under his thumb as well as being well supplied with Sauer & Simsom components. I would not doubt he traded components for effort. Then when the flew the coop, he lost his marks/pigeons and the Americans already had the market in the West and he was a small fish in a large pool and slipped into history. I find it interesting that Edgar Strempel assumed the same role supplying the Russians with examples utilizing the same components at the instance that Otto Reif took flight. Otto Rief still has some descendants that propagate his tale, but mostly about auto racing.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
A lovely Merkel sidelock from 1931, tube extensions, Purdey nose, with interesting pin configuration discovered by Marc:
It wears only a single JY stamp that Günter & I are chasing.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Dear Raimey,
Thank you for your caution. It would be difficulty to pinpoint a manufacturer at present, though we have exhausted all clues. I will try to lay my hands on the firearm to record makers and proof marks. Keep my finger crosses.
Best wishes,
Haibin
Strempel Orig. Holland-Holland
Strempel Orig. Holland-Holland
Barella pin configuration similar to Merkel below
Merkel Sidelock pin configuration very similar to Barella above
Beijing Police Museum example
Otto Reif example from 1947
The Germans must have had their own devised their own Orig. Holland-Holland & Holland-Holland lock variant.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks Gunwolf, but can you acquire an image of the component side of the locks?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I'll try to get one…
Cheers,
Gunwolf
It would appear that Otto Reif was registered as having a gunmaker storefront from the late 1920s until the mid 1930s. During this same period I've seen info that suggest he either acquired Wilhelm Heym or was a silent money backer? And at some point was involved with Römerwerk. Then on Oktober 10th, 1946 he is listed as a Direktor of Sauer & Sohn.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
