Democrats losing moral clarity on Israel

Boston Glob, by Jeff Jacoby

Pew last week released a new survey of American attitudes in the Middle East. The results weren’t surprising. In the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, 51 percent of Americans say they sympathize more with Israel. Only 14 percent feel greater affinity for the Palestinians.

Pew’s findings demonstrate the strength of pro-Israel feeling in the United States. The poll was conducted amid the current fighting with Hamas, but the bottom line hardly changed from Pew’s last survey in April, when it reported that in the 36 years it has been sampling public opinion, “sympathy toward Israel has never been higher.”

But below the surface, America’s Israel-friendly consensus is splitting along the same left-vs.-right fault line that has polarized so many other issues. While support for Israel is overwhelming among Republicans and conservatives, it has been shrinking among Democrats and liberals.

“The partisan gap in Mideast sympathies has never been wider,” reports Pew, with 73 percent of Republicans sympathetic to Israel in the ongoing conflict, but just 44 percent of Democrats. Respondents identifying as liberal Democrats were five times as likely as conservative Republicans to sympathize more with the Palestinians. Thus is the Democratic Party losing its way on one of the great moral issues of our time.

For roughly the first third of Israel’s existence, Democrats tended to support the Jewish state more strongly than Republicans did. Only over the last 25 years has support for Israel grown so much greater among Republicans than among Democrats. The reasons for the divergence are many. On the right, they include the high value Republicans have attached to Israel as a stable ally in a very unstable region, as well as the migration to the GOP of Christians, many of whom support the Jewish state as a matter of transcendent conviction.

But on the left, the Israeli-Arab dispute itself has been redefined. That moral clarity has eroded through a war of ideas, first launched on the radical left, to reframe the conflict by making Israel the villain and casting Palestinians, who had never been considered a nation, as an oppressed underdog seeking independence.

This intellectual assault began when the Soviet Union, angered by Israel’s defeat of its Arab clients in 1967, engineered a propaganda campaign to delegitimize Zionism.

My Take on this:

I think this change in support for Israel over tht past 25 years strongly reflects what happens to an organization such as the "Democratic Party" when control is seized by the radical left. The Israeli's were not the agressors here and only responded in force when rockets from Palestine began raining down on them. Of course the Democrat far left will avoid this point because while the Israelis are fully within their right to defend themselves it doesn't synch with their extreme political views.
Jim

Please explain how subsidizing Israeli construction of new settlements and buying our military hardware with money we provide for them help an average tax paying citizen in United States. Would it not be better to spend money we provide for them to help seal our southern borders? You do live in Az don't you?

And who the hell do you think is going to seal our borders? It sure won't be that closet muslim and part-time occupant of the White House. Gov. Perry of Texas finally decided to act unilaterally and call up the Natl. Guard there. I,and I expect a whole host of others, have contacted Gov Brewer here in Arizona and asked her to do the same.
Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East NOT the agressor and IMO deserves our support. I'd rather the Feds subsidise them than the banana republics in South America who are flooding our southern border with illegals.

Who protects country against invasions? The armed forces an support units of that country. We have over 40,000 in South Korea alone. Don't South Koreans have men to serve? Turkey is also democracy in the region. We should not support any country in the world regardless of system if it is not in our best interest to do so. We are not Santa Klaus.

It's a good thing we didn't feel that way during WW II or you'd have more to concern yourself with today that just a German handle.
Or perhaps you'd have preferred the Nazis won. And I think I shold point out that all the resident Commies here were isolationists until Germany attacked Russia. I see that hypocritical posture hasn't changed.
Oh and that idiot I suspect you support just pulled all of our troops out of Iraq. Now that really made sense. He'll screw up in Afghanistan next given the opportunity.

Your analogy is pointless and I'm not the guy with bunch of Nazi paraphernalia. I'm sorry that as an American you do not want United States to succeed.

I didn't know they were building new settlements, are they?

Sound familiar, 'what's even nicer is giving those fighting there weapons....That leaves fewer for us to deal with when the dust settles'. Or, how about, 'We should be supporting Russia in battles against our enemies'.

Maybe, don't prejudge and be intolerant of Israel. They're willing to use hard earned US tax dollars for the reasons intended, fight the enemy. Rather than the AK accounting of crony warlordism.

You make a good point though. I bet you never asked a tax payer what they get out of assisting Israel, but you sure listen to the talking points of the non taxpayer.

Don't forget, you may not remember where you picked up that you're supposed to bash on Israel, but it's the same folks that demand a porous border. Don't beat yourself up over it, just reconcile it in your mind, and anything can be justified.

Thank you for caring more for foreign country than you own.

Why you are very welcome Jm. You're right, I shouldn't have quoted and answered the question. I figured you are a real cairing kind of guy.

We should transport all palestinians to colonize the inside of the nearest active volcano.

Jagermeister is just propagating more Libtard Democrat lies and bullshit. Israel pulled all of their settlements out of Gaza in 2005, and have not rebuilt.

Also, it would not matter if we diverted all aid to Israel toward securing our Southern border. We already appropriated money for a fence and guards, but Obama and Janet Napolitano put a stop to it. They, along with Harry Reid and other Democrat liars insist that the border is secure.

Notice that Jagermeister is not calling for his hero Obama to stop funding the Hamas controlled Palestinian government. Israel is showing too much restraint in my opinion. They ought to drop a few bombs on W. Kniei.

I love the United States and Jesus Christ my savior. I hope that is ok with you. God Bless.

[quote=boneheaddoctor]We should transport all palestinians to colonize the inside of the nearest active volcano. [/

Actually, the way those little bastards throw rocks, I can name a few baseball teams that could use their services.

Der vos shveight maint oich espes.

Jag is, like Ed Good,best left on "Ignore".

Far kinder tsereist men a velt.

dave k: does the term "pompous ass" ring a bell?

It is interesting. Seems like most libs here follow alinsky, but there's a couple or few who quote mein kampf. To the casual observer, it must be alarming to exclude the likes of la raza and the black liberation theologians. Mean spirited and divisiveness rules the day.

Note:
These brain dead Libtards have NOTHING FACTUAL to post as a rebuttal So they resort to name calling.
Of course they will quote Mein Kampf as the neo Libtards are in fact neo Nazis and detest the Israelis.
This is coming across loud and clear in the worldwide protests against the Israelis defending themselves that have taken on a neo Nazi tone. Even the news media can't hide it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/europe-anti-semitic-demonstrations_n_5608902.html

Unfortunately anti-semitism is alive and well not only in the Middle East but in Europe and elsewhere as well.

Not Mein Kampf. At least this time. It seems Jagermeister is attempting to impress us with a couple Yiddish sayings. Unfortunately though, it appears he has used the Official Illiterate Idiot to Yiddish Translator.

"Der vos shveigt maint oich epes" would be well advised for him. Unfortunately, I am certain we will be treated to more lunacy from him. Should you ever visit W Kniei, don't drink the water. How do you say "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" in Yiddish?

Jim is quite correct about the new wave of anti-Semitism in the middle east, Europe, and here in the U.S. This is driven by both Muslims and the foolish Liberals who think they can win them over. These libtards also totally ignore the war on Christians while they propagate a phony Republican war on women. Stupid, dishonest, or all of the above? King would be the guy to ask, but you'd never get an honest answer.

Keith just where is W Kniei? How is it pronounced? ......weenie?

It is interesting here in Canada, the liberal/anti semitism connection.

Earlier this week the President of the Green Party of Canada, an un-elected position in the party hierarchy, created a firestorm within his party for writing a personal essay that comes out firmly in support of the Israelis and condemning Hamas. The party leader, Elizabeth May, King's friend, felt the need to distance herself from him while most in the party are calling for his resignation.

The pro Hamas position is simply thinly veiled Jew hating, as it usually is, put forward by hypocrites.

I won't bore you with all the details but his essay is excellent, places blame where it needs to be placed and does so without mealy mouthed language or politically correct platitudes.

Okay, let's get some details, what'd King do now. Just kidding around cback.

Speaking of thinly veiled Jew hating, we know what hamas thinks, and does. How about that un. We're supposed to be 'torn' between bashing and supporting Israel for attacking hamas weapons caches in un 'schools'.

I'd really like one of those reporters on the ground to flat out ask some of those un 'teachers', why they didn't just pick a phone or shoot off an email to the un bosses and just tell them what hamas is doing. Hmmm, maybe they did. Aren't we borrowing billions to fund both the un and hamas.

THe entire Gaza strip should be paved over to become a parking lot for Israel.

The foundation of Christianity is an inclusive universalism:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Paul in Galatians 3:28.

I'm for backing whomever my God supports.....per the "Book" that would be Israel.

Comrade King,

You are a master of Religious Hypocrisy. You have inadvertently provided an excellent example of the Judeo-Christian philosophical belief which led to the concept of individual freedom and equality, a belief that you do not hold.

Your sociopathic statist religious beliefs are directly contradictory to the concept of individual freedom and equality, so spare me the hypocritical attempts at distortion and obfuscation, which you use in a very superficial and anti-intellectual way.

Why don't you say what you really believe, such as "Justice is dispensed through the barrel of a gun", (Mao) or "All Power to the Soviets", or lastly, since you like to be vague and anti-intellectually subjective, how about "Bread! Land! Peace!".

J.R.B., W. Kniei is also known as the Land of Oz and it is located somewhere over the rainbow. Jagermeister (a.k.a. the scarecrow) is the guy with a head full of straw who wishes he only had a brain. Then there is the great and powerful Wizard named King who has a hugely inflated resume and self image, but, alas, it turns out that he is just a bloviating fraud who never could get you back to Kansas... even after he LULLED you into getting the wicked witch into giving up her right to keep and bear brooms. But he will raise your taxes and redistribute your income to a bunch of lazy Munchkins!

I have JM on my ignore list. I do see that he posts but I have no idea what he's posting. He is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Son Of Hamas Founder: My Father's Movement 'Doesn’t Care About The Lives Of Palestinians'

Townhall, by Matt Vespa

Meet Mosab Hassan Yousef. (I already have. Thanks for the invite Eric.) He’s the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, one of the founders of Hamas. He’s now an evangelical Christian, living in the U.S. after being granted political asylum, and a former operative with Shin Bet, a branch of Israeli intelligence, which led to his father disowning him back in 2010:

“Hamas doesn’t care about the lives of Palestinians. Does not care about the lives of Israelis or Americans. They don’t care about their own lives. They consider dying for the sake of their ideology a way of worship. And how can you continue in that society?”



Hamas is not seeking co-existence and compromise. Hamas is seeking conquest and taking over. And, by the way, Israel – the destruction of the state of Israel is not Hamas’ final destination. Hamas’ final destination is building the Islamic Caliphate, which means an Islamic state on the rubble of every other civilization. These are the ultimate goals of the movement.


More cover up of Hamas crimes revealed:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07/media-cover-up-of-hamas-crimes-starting-to-unravel/

Any fool can grasp Israel's need to defend itself.Why does that rule out the need to be critical of how they go about doing so? Why must the regulars here continue to denigrate anyone who sees two sides to an issue? The continuous refusal to grant any legitimacy to another's views is precisely the mindset that makes peace in the Middle East, or anywhere else, impossible. Fundamentalist hardliners are the source of conflict wherever they may be.

Two sides to what issue:
Let me see if I have this right:
Israel means us no harm. The Muslims want to wipe us "infidels" off the face of the earth and have repeatedly stated this is their intention. If fact at this moment thay have told the remaining Christians in Iraq to either convert to Islam or die.
The Muslims crashed planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and killed thousands of innocents.
What exactly do you think these nutjobs would try to do if they came into possession of nuclear weapons?
Bottom line: If you are a non Muslim there are NO two sides.
jim

There is no defense for Hamas. There is no defense for Al Qaeda, but if we are willing to adopt their values and refuse to make or accept any distinction between them and, say, Palestinians in general, then we lose any moral difference between them and us.

I'd look at what you wrote Bill. There's no rule that says we have to choose sides, but why is it important for you to condemn other American rather than just say 'if we are willing to adopt their values', why not look at the merits of Israeli values.

Don't you think if it makes you feel better to equivocate, why not compare Americans to anyone one with a bit higher standards. Or, are you saying that you have the same values as hamas. You have read their charter, haven't you?

Craigd, I can't follow what you're saying here. I have no problem with Israeli values.

This is what I was thinking about Bill. You may not have a problem with Israeli values, but in the Israeli/hamas conflict, you seem to be calling those who lean towards the Israeli side, 'fundamentalist hardliners'.

No big deal, criticize Israel, but after you get that out of your system, hamas is still the aggressor with stated goals. What exactly was achieved for peace and stability.

Why not ask, why is the US giving hamas money, directly and through the un. No, not all palistinians are bad, but you haven't shown us the good ones in action so we can contrast them to hamas.

The fundamentalist hardliners I had in mind are the Palestinians and Israelis would would gladly kill one another on sight and who refuse all offers of reconciliation, also those who call me a libtard and a neo nazi. What I condemn is the attitude that we see here so often from those who think they are 100% right 100% of the time and that anyone who differs with them on any point is a "traitor and a coward" or some sociopathic statist, whatever the hell that might be.

Two Sides to the Story:
http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/07/islami...nnocent-people/

Just what the Hell do you think these bloodthirsty Islamist maniacs would do if they managed to overrun Israel? The bloodbath that would occur would make the one I just linked to above look like a minor incident in comparison.
Why do we call those who ignore the facts Libtards? Well these same facts speak for themselves.
There are NO TWO SIDES to this issue period. I personally think the Israelis have exhibited remarkable restraint considering what the Islamists would do to them if they had the weapons capability.
"fundamentalis hardliners" is Libspeak. I personally don't know of even ONE unprovoked attack on Muslims by Israel since 1948. So your point that they would kill Muslims onsight is in fact an outright lie.

Bill, I believe Jim has a point. What's an Israeli hardliner? When have we seen them kill palestinians on sight. When has Israel taken an unprovoked offensive, dug attack tunnels, lobbed random rockets or suicide bombed anyone.

Asked before, we know what the palestinians will say and do. When equivocating, can the Israelis be shown to do similar.

You do follow what your dem appointed sec of state kerry tried to do to Israel to 'help' broker peace. You know he had ambitions to be pres.

Killing Palestinians on sight is not Israeli policy, but there are plenty of fundamentalist Israelis, especially among those living in illegal settlements who do exactly that, for instance, the boy they beat and burned to death just recently. I don't doubt what Hamas would do if it had the means. I do have better expectations of Israel.PS For all the attacks on the present administration, it does keep Israel well supplied with ammunition.

CNN:
Jerusalem (CNN) -- An adult and two minors have been indicted in what Israeli authorities say was the revenge killing of a Palestinian teen -- a death that helped stoke tensions between Israelis and Palestinians this month -- an Israeli district attorney said Thursday.

ONE isolated incident ,which the Israelis investigated and indicted their own citizens for, and you want to paint the Israelis with the broad brush of Terrorism.
When do you expect Hamas to investigate and arrest suspects for the murder of those 3 teenage Israelis? Don't hold your breath as they probably been given medals for this.
The United States has been giving Israel weapons basically since its inception so they can defend themselves from Islamic terrorism. Even Obama isn't stupid enough to change that policy.
Oh and I guess if your an Israeli and you believe you have the right to live that makes you a "fundamentalist".
Israel returned more land then it now has to the Islamites after the 67 war and also closed down many settlement in occupied areas so they're hardly in the land grabbing busines.

Bill,
Arabs move feely in Israeli society. They vote, run for election, and hold political office in Israel, when elected to it.
Have you read the charter for Hamas, Bill? Have you heard what the Iranians have said about their goal for Israel?
What two sides do you speak of? You cannot compare the two. They are as different as good and evil, because they are good, and evil.


Best,
Ted

Interview with Hamas defector

http://pjmedia.com/andrewmccarthy/2014/0...or/?repeat=w3tc

The interview – which you can listen to here – makes many important points. The one I think is most significant for Americans is Mr. Yousef’s explanation that Hamas is not a nationalist political organization. Since the days of the Clinton administration, which means the early years of Hamas, it has been the practice of the United States government to portray Hamas as if, though a terrorist organization, it is just a local group with a local agenda – akin to, say, the IRA. In point of fact, as Mr. Yousef details and as the Hamas charter corroborates, Hamas is and self-identifies as part of the global Islamic supremacist jihad. Its short-term goal is the destruction of Israel, but its aspirations are not limited to national boundaries drawn by the West – it wants a global caliphate just like its parent organization, the Brotherhood, does; just like its once and future patron, Iran, does; and just like its sometime rival sometime collaborator, al Qaeda, does.

Chuck Todd Ignores Israeli Ambassador’s Request To Correct False Story

Washington Free Beacon

Israeli Ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer asked NBC’s Chuck Todd if the network would correct a false accusation made by [a] Gaza-based reporter and Hamas sympathizer.

[The reporter] claimed in a report for NBC News that an Israeli drone had attacked a United Nations facility, killing more than a dozen civilians. The claim led to widespread condemnation of Israel. Yet an investigation proved that the cause of the explosion was a rocket from Islamic Jihad that fell short of its target in Israel, landing in Gaza.

After Dermer asked Todd to correct the story, Todd changed the subject and then ended the interview

A complicated history that will see no peace in our lifetimes. One part that is often left out is terrorism that helped to form the country of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

Looks like the bombing and murder of civilians has been going on long before Hamas was founded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

As always the victors write history but the black and white views some hold here do mesh with my views that this is a very complex problem with blame on both sides. Israels actions in East Jerusalem and the West Bank with continuing to build settlements is a major road block to any peace plan, as are the Rockets launched by Hamas. No easy answers and people will continue to die on both sides until some form of compromise is reached. Not likely to bee seen anytime soon though.

SKB:
There is little question that early on Israel had their own type of terrorist faction. But that was over half a century ago. There has been no terrorism on the part of modern day Israel and I think that's where the current discussion has to be focused.
Yes it's a very complex situation going back over 1000 years. However if the Arabs truly want peace all they would have to do is quit attacking the Israelis, recognise they have a right to exist and that would be the end of it.
IMO: The balls really in the Arabs court and as long as "moderate" Muslims allow the shots to be called by the terrorist extremists like Hamas there will never be a peaceful solution in that region.
Jim

Different viewpoints Jim. When a country is founded upon terrorism it is hard for them to demand others stop the practice. I think it is fair to say both sides are currently conducting terrorist activities. The Israelis continue to carry out assassinations during modern times among many other things. Peace could be moved forward quickly if Israel would compromise on Jerusalem and other"occupied territories" and illegal settlements. They are slowing, a piece at a time, taking more land, it is a fact. Were the Israelis to stop the land grab, there might be a chance at peace. Maybe if there were a moderate Israeli government real negotiations could be conducted.

Maybe there is no issue in this world that is black and white, but it seems odd to go to great lengths to assign equal blame to Israel for intentional lethal armed conflict. Sounds like 'settlement' means forward offensive military base to attack hamas, but if they go away every thing is still the same.

It seems to be a common theme, no answers to offer, but equivocate based on feelings. Shouldn't policy be based on fact, and shouldn't the US appreciate the Israeli will to defend themselves.

Why again are we sending money to hamas. Is it to defend themselves against settlements. Didn't our kerry just propose to Israel to let qatar mediate negotiations. Isn't qatar maybe the biggest hamas financial backer. Interesting, does qatar feel settlements are a threat to the region.

I most definitely agree there're no likely solutions that appeal to emotion, but recorded history shows that all in that area can live in relative peace only if a big dog flexes its military muscle.

The single biggest recipient of US foreign aid, both militarily and economically since 1968 has been Israel. I would personally appreciate them much more if they could stand alone without our help. The will to defend yourself is swell, but it would be much better if they could show that will and pay their own way. Time to see if the big dog can win its own fights?

Differing points of view or more of the same. What's wrong with concluding that hamas should walk away from any settlement conflict in the name of peace. Why would there be that little voice saying, it ain't gonna matter one tiny bit.

The settlement 'discussion' seems to be an easy out to not having solutions. Won't happen, so it's a 'fact' that can not be disproved.

Your right Craig if only the Arabs would accept being driven from what was there home there would be peace.....just that easy. Once again, when a Country is founded through terrorism it is in a hard position to demanand its end.

Very reasonable, but I just don't understand why there's an implication here that hamas is a viable reasonable productive entity. Israel has an economy and benefits all in the area. They do not act as a big dog, their interest is a tiny speck on the map.

Here's what a "viable reasonable productive entity" looks like if you're a Muslim backer!


http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/08/01/hamas-violates-72-hour-ceasefire-after-just-90-minutes/

As an aside: The Biggest recipient of US foreign aid in 2012(the last year I can find records for) was Afghanistan NOT Israel.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2...israel-n1873392

NBC News has come under sharp criticism from Israeli officials this week after one of its reporters falsely reported that attacks on a hospital and a refugee camp in Gaza came from Israeli drones. In fact, the shells were (mis)fired by Hamas, and were intended for Israeli civilians. The terrorist organization's incompetence killed their own people.

Israel's ambassador to the US, Ron Dermer, eloquently explained his country's position on the attack to Megyn Kelly last night, responding to the White House's statement that it was "totally indefensible." Dermer explained that no one has the full context of the incident yet, while readily conceding that the deaths of children is "heart-wrenching." He correctly and repeatedly returned his focus to the question of who is responsible for the violence and the ongoing war. He also noted that Hamas rockets have been discovered in UN-administered schools on three occasions over the last two weeks.


As Hamas has been busy executing accused "collaborators," shooting Palestinian anti-war protesters, and threatening journalists, Israel has been shipping hundreds of tons of humanitarian supplies into the Gaza strip:


The Israeli Foreign Ministry, meanwhile, announced on Twitter that Israel has sent into Gaza more than 4 million liters of diesel for the power station, 3 million liters of fuel and 800,000 liters of benzene for transportation, and 1.6 tons of gas for domestic use during the conflict. Forty-three trucks “carrying over 750 tons of food, medicine & supplies” entered Gaza Wednesday from Israel, the ministry said. It provided information on how people can donate humanitarian supplies, and a contact at the Palestinian Customs Agency.

Hamas rockets have knocked out a number of the strip's electricity lines into Israel. (That's right, Israel provides electricity to Gaza).

One non-negotiable principle for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu entering the talks is his country's right to eradicate Hamas' so-called terror tunnels. The terrorist group allegedly uses international aid and child labor to construct secret underground passageways that burrow under the border, allowing their fighters to infiltrate Israel. The tunnels have been used in several lethal attacks during the current conflict; a separate murder and kidnapping spree was detected and neutralized by Israeli forces. Captured Hamas fighters have also reportedly revealed plans for a massacre scheduled for an upcoming Jewish high holy day, in which the perpetrators were to enter Israel via the tunnel network

Thanks for the elaboration Dave:
There's NO QUESTION in my mind over who is the agressor here and frankly IMO there shouldn't be questions in anyone elses who isn't a Moslem backer.
Jim

Nor is there ANY question in my mind that Hamas is a terrorist and the aggressor who should be destroyed.Even other Arab countries agree.
Krauthammer :

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/384274/legitimizing-hamass-war-criminality-charles-krauthammer

Kerry did not just trample an Egyptian initiative. It was backed by the entire Arab League and specifically praised by Saudi Arabia. With the exception of Qatar — more a bank than a country — the Arabs are unanimous in wanting to see Hamas weakened, if not overthrown

Kerry seems oblivious to the strategic reality that Hamas launched its rockets in the hope not of defeating Israel but of ending its intra-Arab isolation (which it brilliantly achieves in the Qatar-Turkey peace proposal). Hamas’s radicalism has alienated nearly all of its Arab neighbors.

Egypt cut it off — indeed blockaded Gaza — because of Hamas’s support for the Muslim Brotherhood and terror attacks on Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.

Fatah, the main element of the Palestinian Authority, is a bitter enemy, particularly since its Gaza members were terrorized, kneecapped, expelled and/or killed when Hamas seized Gaza in a 2007 coup.

Hamas is non grata in Syria, where it had been previously headquartered, for supporting the anti-government rebels.

Hamas is deeply opposed by Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states who see it, correctly, as yet another branch of the Islamist movement that threatens relatively moderate pro-Western Arab states.

Oh, really? The US was founded on terrorism. If the notion of a country being founded on terrorism strikes you as a bad thing, you will have to begin by condeming a huge part of todays world-think communist China, Panama (sponsored US terrorism) most of South America, the former Soviet Union, and the list goes on and on.
You ready to condemn all of the above, and more? Why don't you start by setting a good example, and calling up whatever tribe lived on YOUR land, and offering it back to them, gratis?
See? You are continuing the terrorism perpetrated to the indigenous. You terrorist.
The simple fact is the chips fell where they did, and it is now time for the (Arab) world to get over it. Why don't you see how interested the Saudis are in giving up part of Mecca or Medina, in exchange for a bit of Jerusalem? Or, the Iranians doing the same with Oom? Oops, I guess the Iranians don't recognize Israel. That will make it tough.
No progress will happen until all sides can begin by looking forward. Useless rearview looking back and festering on incidents from a lifetime ago will advance nothing of worth today.

Best,
Ted

Just in case you needed more facts as to just how bizarre the far left really is:
I guess using this logic below we should have given Japan a couple of operational Atomic Bombs in the later stages of WW II!


U.N. condemns Israel, U.S. for not sharing Iron Dome with Hamas

Washington Times, by Cheryl K. Chumley

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay slammed Israel for possibly committing war crimes in its fight against Hamas -- [to] members of the media at an “emergency” meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council -- and then backed that accusation by suggesting the Jewish nation ought to be sharing its Iron Dome defensive technology with the very terror group it’s fighting. (If constant use of our money to sabotage our interests isn’t enough, if top to bottom corruption isn’t enough, if dominance by, espionage for and collaboration with Islam isn’t enough, at long last is incredible stupidity enough to get the U.S. the hell out of the U.N. and the U.N. the hell out of the U.S.? Please?)

So just who drove Arabs from their home, and when? Are we talking about the British defeat of the Turkish Ottoman Empire and the subsequent Balfour Declaration by the League of Nations? Weren't tens of thousands of Jews already living in that region just as they had for thousands of years? And didn't the "Palestinian" Arabs then reject the formation of both a Jewish and a Palestinian State? They had their chance to live in legitimate harmony way back in 1917 and pissed it away and instead chose to engage in a long cycle of violence. Then they all cry foul when they get their noses bloodied. It sounds like the Israeli's had a legitimate right to migrate into their new country which was created by the predecessor of the U.N. and recognized by Britain, the Soviet Union, the United States, and all of the major players on the Global scene... except for the Arabs who would rather fight than accept the Jews who originated in this region thousands of years before Moses.

Imagine how bad this could all be with the total lack of Immigration Enforcement we are seeing on our own Southern Border now. Goofballs like Jagermeister and ed good choose to wear rose-colored glasses and ignore history.

Or are we talking about driving Arabs from their home after Israel narrowly averted total destruction after it miraculously turned the tide and defeated the Arab Nations who launched a surprise "Pearl Harbor" type attack in 1967? So Israel annexed a conquered buffer zone in Gaza and the West Bank and kept it and established settlements as spoils of a war they did not initiate. Would Israelis have ever done that if their neighbors didn't try, and almost succeed in destroying them in 1967? Hasn't much of that land been ceded back since then in failed attempts to make peace with the Arabs who wish to kill all of them. How much land did they return after Jimmy Carter's Camp David Accords, and how much did Bill Clinton convince them to pull out of to finally make peace? There have been no Jewish settlements in Gaza since 2005, yet Hamas is still launching thousands of rockets and terrorist attacks, and tunneling into Israel in order to make war.

I was sure that none of the concessions that Israel has made to try to buy peace over the years would work. All of the Libtards were sure they would. Who was right? Yet I'll bet all the Libtards would want Israel to concede even more, just as they think that conceding our Gun Rights to anti-gunners will stop the grab and prevent crimes of violence.

You just can't fix stupid.



Then we have the goofy Libtard Rocky Mtn Bill asking why we regulars can't accept Israel and Hamas as co-equal partners with a little problem to resolve, with Israel being a major impediment. Uh, just who was it that voted overwhelmingly to elect Hamas to govern the Palestinians? Who permits them to buy and keep misslies in schools, hospitals, and private homes? Who funds them? As Jim tried to illustrate for him, only one of these parties has the intent of totally destroying the other... along with all non-Muslims including us as well. Bill strains to find a violent Fundamentalist extremist Israeli while there are literally thousands of examples of individual Arab and Arab Nation State attacks upon Israel, replete with missile attacks, shootings, suicide bombings, terrorism, kidnappings and murders, and an ongoing Iranian Atomic Weapons program with the goal of vaporizing Israel. All of this, plus lockstep adherence to the failed policies of the Great Society, and poor Rocky Mtn Bill can't understand why we think he's so damn dumb???

And what about Bush's roadmap? The one that calls for the pre-67 lines to be a starting point? The agreement a more moderate Israeli Government agreed to and now Bibi will not abide by? Ahh yes, so simple. It is all the Palestinians.....

I have said many times that I disagreed with many of Bush Jr.'s ideas and policies, and this was one of them. Still, he was a far saner choice than either Gore or Kerry... and the only rational choice if you really value the Second Amendment. I cannot believe that a third party candidate has not been able to break out yet, but our system is now set to heavily favor nothing but a choice between the lesser of two evils.

I did say in my previous post that I felt Israel was foolish to make concessions to those Muslims who tried to annihilate them and still publicly and proudly wish to complete the job. The aggreements made by more moderate Israeli's didn't work, did they? All they did was buy the terrorists time to regroup and re-arm, didn't they? All they did was cede back more land which allowed the tunneling terrorists of Hamas to make more and shorter tunnels. After what happened in 1967, Israel would have been smart and justified to turn the whole West Bank and Gaza into an uninhabited buffer zone of heavily mined no-man's land.

Bibi is doing the right thing. Hopefully, he will not succumb to pressure from world leaders who would never tolerate having their own citizenry under constant attacks and threats of total destruction. Hopefully, you or your family will not be on the next plane, airport, subway, or city that the Radical Islamists attack when they once again turn their evil attentions to us. But it just might take something that extreme to change your mind.

I already know they hate us and don't want to peacefully co-exist under any circumstances. My belief that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel is not paranoia. It is part of their written Charter. When you are hunting and see a rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike, will you try to make peace with him?

Keith, I'm on an island right now on Lake Huron. In the 300 yard walk past three neighbours cottages, 9 rattlesnake sightings in the last 2 weeks.

What so you do when surrounded by rattlesnakes? Walk carefully and observantly. Not walk carelessly imagining the rattlesnake cares about my interests.

Nancy Pelosi Calls Hamas a "Humanitarian Organization"

http://eaglerising.com/7723/horrible-nan...680qB7blulpf.99

Nancy Pelosi was talking to that woman who lied to Romney during one of the debates. Remember how Obama sat on his stool with the face of a petulant school girl and angrily told Mr. Romney to "move on"? That was Jabba's Unpleasant Daughter's job...if proper, which it wasn't. Now the polls indicate that the majority of the dummies who voted (again) for Obama prefer Romney. Isn't political stuff fun?

But back to Pelosi and Jabba's progeny. Pelosi said she believed the outfit paying the bill for Hamas is a "humanitarian organization."

After Pelosi's performance, the screen flashed to Mrs. Bill Clinton, who asserted the reason those largely misunderstood guys in Hamas hide their bombs, guns and "meeesiles" in schools, mosques, private homes and hospitals, is because Gaza is a "small place." So...the reason Hamas uses human shields is because real estate is scarce. Who knew?

After that amazing revelation, some dork spokesman for Hamas gave a speech praising and urging the "good citizens" of Gaza to ignore Israeli leaflets warning of pending retaliatory strikes in the leafleted neighborhood from which meeesiles had recently been launched. The dork was nicely dressed and smiling. He urged folks to stay in their homes and (impliedly) "die for Allah" or words to that effect.

Better analogy would be Israelis are US military Bluecoats and Palestinians are insurgent American Indians of the old west.

Except Jagermeister, that you are too stupid to understand that Jews have lived there for as long as ther have been Jews. And you are too anti-Semitic to understand that the Palestinian Arabs had their chance to establish their own nation at the same time that England, the U.S., the Soviet Union, and all of the major players of the League of Nations offered up a solution to an old problem. The Israeli's prospered as a new nation, even though they got the short end of the Petroleum stick, while the Arabs who had every chance and advantage, pissed it all away and blamed everyone but themselves.

Kind of reminds me of whiny U.S. blacks who pissed away all of the advantages of Affirmative Action, free goodies and free higher education. And the Palestinian Leaders remind me of our own Race Hustlers like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who have made millions and lived a nice life as they keep their own people down by constantly telling them they are victims.

video Proof Palestinians preffer goat sex to human sex.

http://prepperchimp.com/2014/08/03/video-israeli-drone-captures-hamas-forces-having-sex-with-goats/

from the same site;

The "peaceful religion" Beheading a Christian after forcing him to convert to islam.

http://prepperchimp.com/2014/05/09/video...remely-graphic/

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

Christian family being Driven from family farm, fighting back with peace

Kind of interesting. If I had a serious dispute with a 'neighbor', I'd pick the Israelis hands down. I wonder what hamas would've done to an Israeli farmer. He might not be around to tell the story, along with the rest of his family.

One look at the history of Hamas and you can see the connection to Nazism ;

http://instigatornews.com/hamas-shows-nazi-roots-obamas-final-solution-israel-unravels/

"The anti-Israel movement and anti-Semitism among modern Islamists have deep roots in Hitler’s Germany, although the political left has taken great pains to ensure that Americans remain ignorant of this. In November of 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, traveled to Berlin and met with Adolf Hitler. Troops that he subsequently cultivated among Eastern European Muslims fought alongside German troops against the Allies, and participated in rounding up Jews and other “undesirables”; the Mufti and his assistants advised Hitler on such endeavors as the concentration camp program, or “Final Solution.” After the war ended, Husseini became a mentor of the Palestinian Liberation Organization’s Yasser Arafat, among other things.

And for those of you that have trouble believing this:

Arab Nazis!

Those were just Croatians fighting along the Germans in hope of establishing free Croatian state. This has ZERO relevance to topic at hand.

Sure Jagermeister, and I suppose that photo of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem meeting with Hitler that Dave K provided earlier was also just a couple guys working on establishing a free Croatia.

You always seem to have an answer... but it is always either dumb or dumber. Why don't you just go back to stealing Yiddish sayings?

Many of the Handschar Division members were Arab Muslims recruited from the Middle East. Their dress hats were Fezs as pictured above.
Jim

Of course Jim. The Arab quest for the Caliphate has been going on since the Middle Ages. Christians, Jews, and other infidels have always been an impediment. Had the alliance with the Nazi's been successful, the Islamists would have eventually turned on them, or infiltrated and degraded them from within. Partnerships or peaceful co-existance just isn't part of the long range game plan. Libtards can't seem to grasp what history has proven.

The Libtards here whine about the lack of respect we give them, but they keep right on spewing nonsense and outright lies. I don't expect that situation will ever change, except that the really dishonest ones will sometimes temporarily change their tunes when things get too hot. But a leopard or a Libtard never changes its' spots.

Isn't it the jewish lobby in america that are constantly trying to enact gun control laws and get rid of your second amendments ? Bloomberg, feinstein, schumer, boxer, celler (1968 cga) , in fact every piece of gun control legislation since ww2 has been brought in by someone jewish , correct ? Great work on their behalf when they make up roughly 0.5% of your population. No wonder you all support israel, you must be hoping they all "ascend" and leave you in piece.

http://iamthewitness.com/doc/The.Jewish.Gun.Grabbers.htm

Excellent twist bonny. With all your support going to hamas, what's in it for you.

Uh no... totally incorrect... unless Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Joe Biden, Barack Hussein Obama, and many others were actually Jewish. Take a look at this list of Senators who voted both for and against the recent Obama attempts at gun control:

http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2013/0...it-2508630.html

Actually, it looks like the real threat to the Second Amendment comes from Liberal Democrats far more than from Jews. And the Jewish Senators in your link just happened to be Liberal Democrats. There seems to be a common denominator that a lot of our Libtards are missing. And it sure as hell wasn't a bunch of Jews who hijacked some planes and crashed them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. FYI, it was radical Islamists. I still lean toward supporting Israel rather than Hamas. Nice Anti-Semitic try though bonny!

I am not anti-semitic or pro-hamas, but the bombing and shooting of the ordinary palistinians is only doing one thing, namely radicalising new generations against israel.

So, what is the launching of thousands of missles and frequent terrorist attacks into Israel doing to change the attitudes of new generations in Israel?

It seems the Arabs and so-called "ordinary palestinians" who overwhelmingly voted to have a terrorist organization as their leaders could have chosen peaceful co-existance a long long time ago... but they chose another path... one which calls for and supports the total destruction of Israel. Sounds like the Israelis have a choice of self-defense or destruction. I wonder which you would choose if someone threatened to kill you and your family, and actually acted upon that threat?

And you did try to blame all of the gun control measures in the U.S. since WWII as the responsibility of Jews when you know damn well that it was almost totally Liberal Democrats. What conclusions should we draw from that little faux pas?

I looked over the list you have provided. It does seem to support what Bonny alluded to. One could easily include Mikey Bloomberg in that bunch.

Bonny didn't allude to anything you hydrocephalic chimp. He said that every gun control measure since WWII was introduced by Jews. That was a totally incorrect statement. I provided him several names of prominant gun controllers who are not Jewish, and a list containing the vote of every U.S. Senator who voted on Obama's gun control measures after Newtown. I never said there were no Jews on that list. There are more than a few. What percentage of black U.S. Senators voted in favor of more gun Control? But what stands out much farther than the number of Jews is the number of Liberal Democrats... you know... like the people you vote for.

You could include Mikey Bloomberg in that bunch... if he was a U.S. Senator. But he's not. At least not yet. He hasn't bought the votes of simpletons like you to get into the Senate.

Your response demonstrates why it would be a good idea to pass a Constitutional Amendment to require an I.Q. of at least 50 to vote.

Actually, it seems like bonny combined two unrelated thoughts to come up with one 'fact'. I can't see where he showed that just because there're some antigun libs with Jewish sounding last names, that they are the pro Iraeli lobby.

I doesn't matter to me if he's pro Israeli or pro hamas, but he seems to imply that hamas is the folks who'll help preserve US gun rights.

Like others have noted, why haven't Iraelis been radicalized into terrorists from the thousands of rockets fired at them each year. Yea, I know someones gonna say the Israelis are the terrorists.

Heard a good reminder comment the other day, palestinians are from the jordanian area. Shouldn't libs apply international pc pressure to let them return 'home'. Hmmm, that's not mantra so it must not be so.

Providing that list was not a smart move. I think Mikey Bloomberg would make fine president. I bet he would do it for $1 per year.

http://www.gunnews.com/federal-judge-compares-2nd-amendment-right-get-abortions/




I copied Jim's link, and your comments about this black Judge from Jim's "Abortion Rights Equal to Firearms Rights" thread.

Now you're telling us that you think Michael Bloomberg is "fine" and that you think he "would do it for $1 per year."

Misfires rules say "No Pornography or Discussions of a Sexual Nature." , so please knock off this sick perverted stuff. Those of us with "closed minds" who haven't traveled enough to appreciate "Greek or Islamic culture" find it offensive!

I really got into it last night with a Hamas/Palistinian sympathiser blaming the Israelis for "agression."
This was my final point:

"If the Muslims ever succeed in over running Israel and defeating the Israeli forces the resulting Holocaust will make the Nazis look like amateurs."

I got no response to this.
Jim

As a sidenote R. Nixon is credited with literally saving Israel during the 73 war. He received a very small percentage of the(under 20%) American Jewish vote when running for President. Obama on the other hand received over 70% of the American Jewish vote. GO FIGURE!

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/arab-israeli-war-1973

Yeh, that Gun Auction add girl is pretty attractive. I was just kidding about Michael Bloomberg to see what your response would be.

You know that referring to him as the "black judge" is socially unacceptable right?

Does anyone else see an attractive Gun Auction girl? All I see is a black guy wearing a robe, followed by questionable comments about his appearance and perverted thoughts that Michael Bloomberg is "fine" and "would do it for $1 per year."

You knew what my response would be. I think that behavior is an abomination and marriage is between a man and a woman. Period!

Here... your president does it for free:

http://gopthedailydose.com/2013/05/26/mom-of-murdered-obama-gay-lover-speaks-up/

"....black guy wearing a robe...." You're beyond help, sir.

I opened that link. Bro, it looks like picture of that lady in the article was taken from National Enquirer or similar type magazine.

Hey, I try to be open minded, but there are limits. There sure as hell aren't any girls, cute, ugly, or otherwise in that link. There is a Gun Auction ad at the bottom of the page... but still no girls. Nice try. You wanted to see my response, you got it. Now quit whining. What goes on between guys in W Kniei should remain behind closed doors. And don't call me Bro. I'm not that way. "Girls" around here don't have a Louisville slugger under their robes!

Now Jim.....that was funny!