I just acquired a 20g NID 3E with a single trigger and was curious if anyone could provide any information or comments about this trigger. I've been loosely following the Infallable trigger thread as well.

Miller?

No marking on the trigger. It appears to be orig factory trigger with an unusually shaped shoe. I'll post pics later.

I have a 1928 20ga with a single trigger and it is set to the rear. Why did they do that anyway's, seems it should be where the front trigger would be.

Miller did make triggers without their name on them. I had a NID with a Miller trigger which was not marked as a Miller trigger. But that is the only one I have seen for certain and only learned that when I pulled the stock to restock the gun. That gun is now with my brother and I do not have easy access to it. Never loan a gun to a brother unless you have no need for the gun. After five years I call the loan a gift.

Somewhere I read that Ithaca's contract with Miller prohibited Miller from putting their name on the single triggers they provided for the NID's. I just wish I could remember where I read this.

Ed Pirie
West Topsham, Vermont

So that upland bird hunters could get a gloved finger in the trigger bow.

Chuck H...is it a selective single trigger? Is the selector part of the sefety mechanism? If you answered yes to both questions, then chances are that your trigger is a Miller...if you answered no to either question then you may have a Harry Howland disigned trigger. Even though Harry wasn't granted a patent for one of his designs until 1931, there is evidense that Ithaca was using in house single trigger designs even into the late Flues era, and maybe further back. The second patented Howland design was non selective. The first was selective. It's difficult to say without pics or more info...

It would be difficult to tell the difference between a Miller and a Howland 1931 design (selective) without seeing pictures of the mechanism itself

Early on Millers were doing the single triggers for the NID. Up thru the 1930-31 catalogues the text just says "Selective Single Trigger." Beginning with the 1931-32 Catalogues the text says "Ithaca Selective Single Trigger" which I mark as the beginning of the use of the Howland-designed trigger (Patent No. 1,818,852 granted August 11, 1931). Walter may have some more precise info as to when the change actually happened on the guns.

With the 1932 catalogue Ithaca began offering the non-selective Ithaca single trigger as well. This was eventually covered by Howland's Patent No. 1,987,402 granted January 8, 1935.

The first non selective Howland trigger was first patented in 1932...pat.# 1889049...but the selective design even appears on guns that are pre 1930..

I was hoping that someone else would say, other than myself, that it looks like Ithaca had Harry working to circumvent the numerous Miller patent designs...and well before 1931

Robert,
Yes, it's selectable. I actually hadn't noticed until you mentioned it. As you can see the safety is the selector. You can also see the little woop-de-do in the trigger shoe where it appears to have been welded. I'd like to find a pic of another to redo that work abit.

You can also see it is loose in the stock. The stock actually has a grafted butt at the wrist (not all that well done) and has split at the head. Restock time. The metal is very good, so the gun will be worth the work/money.

Here's the internal parts of the trigger.

If that's the only stock problem, then I wouldn't restock it...then you've got a re-stocked NID...that stock can be easily repaired with a bowtie or a BX staple, inletted into the face of the stock...then the little poor inletting that's left (around the top tang) can be filled with colored acra-gel...

Looks McGraw engraved...

See the end of the screw, on the top tang, behind the safety button.? Notice the relationship to the surface of the top tang...If you alter this screw as little as 1/4 to 1/2 turn in either direction, chances are that you will have single trigger problems...so keep that in mind if you re-stock it, or just tighten and glue the original stock..

the trigger itself doesn't look like any Miller's that I've seen, but there are many Miller variations that I've not seen...

My guess is that it's a Howland trigger, maybe even an illegitmate cousin of a Miller ...that's probably too harsh of a comparison, but I believe that Ithaca was fitting their guns with single triggers long before they enjoyed patent protection for the mechanism...This is not the first time I've seen that under-cut trigger on an Ithaca either, (as others will probably tell you)...

If you have the right screwdrivers to remove the stock, and show pics, there is a 50/50 chance it could be identified. The fact that it's selective rules out Howland's second or third triggers...so logically the first comparisons would be the 1931 Howland design, and the 1925 EE Miller.

It's interesting to wonder what happened between Ithaca and EE Miller, because EE averaged a new patent trigger nearly every other year in the 20's (6 pats), then in '29 he stopped, only to start up again nearly a decade later...early in that same decade, that started out in the Depression, Howland patented at least three trigger designs...so I wonder...did EE Miller get chopped up by the Depression or did Ithaca stop using his trigger for economic reasons? Why was Ithaca pressing for their own Howland design? Did they do it because Miller was out of operation during those Depression years, or did they have a falling out with EE Miller as they did with Emil Flues?

Your pictures posted while I was typing the last post

I would say this is it, a 1931 Howland/Ithaca factory trigger...now do you see the anomolies here? 1926, and a 1931 design trigger...

Robert,
Thanks much. This Howland design appears to be very simple in its function. It also seems to be very tolerant of upper to lower tang relationship. Now that I understand how it works I believe it will be reliable.

Unfortunately, the stock has been grafted at the wrist and not done all that well. The entire stock aft of the wrist is a replacement. It has also been butchered up in the inletting to allow some unknowing hack to remove the stock without removing the sears. And so I have no reservations about restocking the gun as it will never be the "original" stock ever again.

I almost forgot...to give credit where cridet is due...Howland's third trigger design, that Researcher cited, from 1935, was also the design work of Nestor Smith...

As far as I know, your gun is the first to be positively and publicly identified as having the first model Howland/Ithaca factory single trigger...I've seen others and owned one, but I was alone in my observations before this. Now lets see a Smith with factory Hurst ejector system...

This is odd because I once owned a VHE parker with the same trigger mechanism and selector arrangement, it was even stamped the same as Chucks gun in front of the safety. It had Miller stamped on the trigger, strange???

Jim

I know what you mean, is does look like a Miller trigger, but so does the Howland trigger, it's not strange, it's a Miller copy...well maybe, because we really don't know what happened to the Miller/Ithaca relationship during the Depression...AND chances are that the currently accepted production dates for those years are incorrect...

Would you like me to post more drawings of the Howland trigger and Miller drawings for comparison?

Look at the Howland drawing that is posted above...it looks exactly like a Miller trigger to me, but apparently the patent office thought there was enough differences to grant the patent in the same thread 42/42.01

It's possible that the Howland design was implemented before the patent was granted. If the patent had been applied for, it would be somewhat plausable for the trigger to be on a gun several years earlier. But, 5 years?

That's why I offered to post the Miller 1925 patent drawing. The Howland trigger is so close, that I can't tell easily...They look exactly alike to me...there must be some serious difference other than the shape of the trigger itself, or the patent office wouldn't granted the patent to Howland in 1931..the '25 Miller soon to follow...

Now, I realize that Miller was there first, but Harry Howland was in Ithaca where the guns were being made...which is not an easy factor to omit. If it didn't have that strange trigger shape, my guess would be Miller, especially since the established dates support it...but what about that trigger shape? and what about Howlands patent being so very close to Miller's. Why doesn't it say Miller on the trigger, Was Ithaca producing Miller's design, rather than Miller supplying them to Ithaca...where is the line in this grey zone...maybe this weekend, I'll find time to completely read both patents for suble differences in the mechanism. In the mean time anyone else can read them by simply searching Google patents for those two numbers

Chuck's trigger is clearly marked "PAT'D.", which I'd interpert as "patented". Sooo, is this an early Howland spuriously marked as already patented or is it actually a Miller or is there a Miller/Howland interconnect??

Chuck's trigger is clearly marked "PAT'D.", which I'd interpert as "patented". Sooo, is this an early Howland spuriously marked as already patented or is it actually a Miller or is there a Miller/Howland interconnect??

In looking at the shape of my bobweight, it's clear that it matches the Elmer Miller drawing in its profile.

I'm guessing that the shape of the trigger shoe has been altered on my gun to place the trigger further aft.

Chuck, the trigger on the Parker was wide, the web between the double triggers was removed and the trigger fit in the resulting recess. You would think that Ithaca would have changed the selector indicators to a more factory look instead of just stamping the letters in front of the safety button. The Miller on the Parker was very reliable and use of the safety for barrel selection practical although I rarely changed it. Robert is right about the stock fit being critical for trigger operation, but that is true about most single triggers that I have seen. Be glad you don't have one of the non-selective triggers that Ithaca used on the NIDs. It is a Rube Goldberg device and made of stamped parts.

Jim

Jim,
Yes, this trigger is double wide in the triggerplate. I was really worried it would be a POS and I'd have to modify the gun to DT. I'm very hopeful that this trigger proves reliable.

Most times a gun which is 75 years old with no signs of extensive trigger work in the past will be free of most major bugs. If it was a poor design and had given previous owners trouble some gun hack would have altered it by now. I find that most of these single triggers work well until they are fixed. Since you most likely are right that you have a unlabeled Miller trigger then you should be fine. My single trigger NID was a unlabeled Miller trigger and it worked perfectly.

Chuck,
When you say "bobweight" I take it that you're referring to the inertia block...and speaking of Rabbit's "interconnect" between Miller and Howland, did you notice that Howland actually applied for the patent in June of '28? It's on the top of the drawing posted earlier...
and I just noticed that the Miller drawing has the patent date and patent number cut off...that date is July '25, and the number is 1544673.
So that's from July of '25 to June of '28...if an Ithaca employee applied in June '28, it doesn't stand to reason that he just started jerking around with single triggers in June of that same year...so that pushes it back some

Why wouldn't Ithaca steamroll Miller and his designs when all Miller's designs were based on somebodies elses patented design anyway?...

Oh yeah, I was mistaken about EE Miller going off radar after '29...he was just on to different things like over/unders and sliding cheekpieces during the Depression

Robert,
Yes, sorry. Bobweight is a common term used in airplane systems for inertia weights.

I'm not sure what to make of the patent dates. Sometimes even a large company will respect a patent of a little guy to protect from litigation or just because they are ethical.

I wonder if Walt Snyder has some chronology information on Ithaca ST's?

>
Rube Goldberg! They work just fine until like most ST's, someones fixes them. The one pictured isn't exactly a hand sculpted work of art in itself but they all seem to get the job done if installed and adjusted correctly in a properly set stock as already pointed out. The SNS triggers I've had on 3 NID's all worked fine including one basket case 16ga grade 3E that I restored. It's really quite a simple device working off the right hammer follow through to allow the left sear to be fired. I must agree with you the selector indicator markings on the gun in question here could have been done up a bit more 'from the factory' looking than they did. But there's no argueing that the Miller or Ithaca/Miller triggers worked well no matter how we view the cosmetics of the installation.

Chuck - I have several NID's with single triggers. None are marked as Millers, although they all LOOK like Millers. The tang markings are the same as on your gun, although the triggers themselves are all shaped differently than yours. I seem to recall that Walt's book mentions that Ithaca pretty much stole Miller's design and manufactured it themselves in order to save a buck or two. I also recall Walt mentioning that pretty much destroyed the good relationship that Ithaca and Miller had previously enjoyed. That wasn't difficult for me to believe. You owe it to yourself to buy a copy of Walt's book if you have any interest at all in Ithacas. Even if you don't currently have an interest in them, you probably will after reading the book.

B French,
Thank you for letting honesty overcome political correctness. I think Chuck is already aware that the Miller/Howland change over was not cut and dry. Didn't Harry Howland ALSO do some similar creative patent circumventing in order for Ithaca to begin production of the model 37 slide action shotgun? Isn't this what Alexander Brown did to Baker's patents for LC Smith (in the beginning)?
I would love to know what circumstances created Ithaca's falling out, surrounded the most fruitful $$$ patent in the history of SxSs, with it's inventor Emil Flues...

This post referrs to the Ithaca/Miller selective single trigger. There was in the Ithaca Gun Co. files, a 2 inch thick folder on correspondence between Lou Smith and Elmer Miller. My distillation of it was that Ithaca offered a single trigger option with the newly introduced NID. The trigger choosen was the Miller trigger BUT Lou Smith did not want it marked "Miller." Seems Lou charged $5.00 more for the trigger then Miller charged. If Miller marked them, the additional $5.00 would be hard to justify. They went back and forth on the issue, some guns came through marked Miller, some wouldn't. Costs were also debated. Miller finally insisted marking all of his triggers(installed on Ithaca guns) with the Miller name. Ithaca, starting in 1928, then put its own trigger on. Elmer claimed Ithaca stole his design. Lou was quoted as saying I will fight you in court OR with my fists. I doubt either happened. I don't care to debate the legal or ethical issues, this is what happened. I have a log book of Ithaca installed triggers, started in 1928 through 1941. Most were installed by Frank Knickerbocker and some by a man named Ferrel.
When Ithaca/Miller had a relationship, guns were sent to Miller for the installation.
I talked to Howard Miller(elderly son of Elmer) and he was still, after 70 some years, very bitter about Ithaca "stealing the Miller trigger design."

Walt,
Thank you for this information. I can see I really do need your book now that I have several Ithaca's. Please send postal address for payment or can I use the link on the Doublegunshop site and still have the book signed by you?

Chuck, PM sent.

WCS - thnaks for your input. Nothing quite like the guy with the records chiming in!!

Here are two schematics(from Ithaca files) of NID single triggers, eg. selective and non-selective. I think some modifications of the NID non-selective trigger were used on the Nitro Specials and the Western Arms guns.

and here is a factory file photo of the SST.

Walt,
I sent you a check in the mail today.
Thanks

Walt, I have an Ideal Grade L.C. Smith that has on the trigger assembly Hunter One Trigger. The thing that was different by looking at it, is that the selector for barrel change is not next to the other trigger. It is on the safaety, almost set up like the older 3 position safety. Forward right barrel, center off, rearward left barrel. Upon taking gun apart it is a Miller One Trigger. Someone had the good sense to change it over, but used the housing of the Hunter One Trigger.





If Ithaca made their own, they definetly copied Miller's.
IMOP I think the Miller Trigger is far superior to the Hunter One-Trigger, it is a nightmare to work on and not many people will mess with them.

Very interesting. My experience with the Miller/Ithaca trigger is also positive.

The Hunter One Trigger is just like any other trigger...the relationship or distance between the top tang and the trigger strap is critical...also, the slightest sliver of wood or dried oils that ran down the firing pin holes will cause the inertia block to stick or hang up...I've never had a problem with a Hunter One Trigger and I own three at the moment...two of which I shoot rather abusively...With Smith's, I can usually tell if there is a single trigger problem just by looking at the top tang screw behind the safety...before I buy it

Robert, Hunter One-Triggers work fine, but if you do have a problem you better be prepared to be frustrated on fixing it, and like I said most gunsmiths won't touch it. You are correct in the tang screw, too tight and it won't function. That is why it is best to try it as you tighten this screw before putting on the trigger guard.




I replaced a stock on a 16 ga Field Grade FW E with the Hunter One-Trigger, the new stock was from a 16 ga Ideal Grade with double triggers. The only problem I have now that it has a heavy trigger pull, any ideas?

I also have a Hunter One Trigger selectable on my LC FWE 12g. it has worked flawlessly for several seasons. But, I wouldn't want to have to work on it. The trigger is on the opposite end of complexity compared to the Miller/Ithaca/Howland design. I haven't seen a trigger more complex than the Hunter. Anyone else?

The Hunter is complex but usually works fine if unmessed with & clean, properly inletted & hasn't been 'adjusted' by someone trying to improve the system. It's the other half of the mechanism,,the sears,, that must be adjusted correctly. Specificly the sear arms that contact the trigger assembly have to be in the exact correct placement and spaced perfectly above the triggers contact points. Too low to the pads and they may double or make the selector not operable. Too high and you may have an overly long trigger pull or not enough trigger pull length to even get the thing to fire. Plus, too high over the pads and the interupter will prevent the barrel selected from fireing at all. Other things figure into it too,,a long heavy sear nose engagement will make the interupter engage on the selected barrel before the trigger breaks and prevent fireing. The sear arms must also clear the trigger engagement pads after fireing to allow the interupter to disengage and the second barrel to be fired. Lots going on in there thats not necessarily inside the Hunter trigger mechanism itself. The shotguns tang screws should be properly tightened down. The final adjustment to getting the trigger working properly (assuming the trigger mechanism is in itself working correctly!) is in the tweeking of the sears, the placement of their arms, the sear engagement. Getting the trigger to function by backing off on the tang screws is actually telling you what the final corrections should be done.
It should not be the way to just 'make it work'. A loose stock and fit up will result over time and even more problems result if the gun is an actual using shotgun.

I agree with Kutter to a point...I've never been good at tuning a sear, so I can't offer any help there...the most I ever do is stone all surfaces to remore any burrs...also try cycling the trigger with the stock off as sometimes the tail end of the sear lever can drag on the stock during travel...a quick way to tell if the sear levers are touching the stock is, using a small model paint brush, cut off 1/3 of the bristles, and use it to apply a thin, sort of uniform coat of bright red lipstick to the outside surfaces of the rear part of the sear levers...assemble the gun, cycle the trigger, then remove the stock again...any areas that are red need another shave with the palm chisel...re-paint, re-assemble, and repeat...

Hi,

I realize that this topic hasn't been added to for a couple of years, but a while back, I bought a trigger that was advertized as being for a rifle. I thought it was some sort of fancy single set trigger, but the pictures were poor and the price was cheap, so I bought it. It has been sitting around for a while and I was
trying to avoid thinking about something so I decided to try to research it. I think it is a Miller type trigger of some form and wondered if anyone could recognize it.

PhysDoc,

You have a non-selective Miller "type" trigger set up to fire right bbl first. I say Miller "type" because being unmarked we can't be certain that it was made by the Miller company. I'm not sure what brand of gun your trigger was made for but I can say with some certainty that it wasn't for a Parker, Fox, Ithaca or L.C. Smith. The Millers adapted their trigger to many different guns so it is just about impossible to say for sure.

Also, to add to the commentary of this original thread, I have had some experience working with both Miller made and Ithaca "Howland" triggers in Ithaca guns. The only real difference I can find in them is that the "Howland" trigger uses a two-piece main trigger body whereas the Miller had a more simple one-piece trigger body. I surmise that this was the only "difference" relating to the new patent. The two-piece is also inferior as it necessitates milling a wider slot in the trigger post which results in the sides becoming quite thin. I recently had to repair a Howland trigger that had broken in this area due to being thin. I haven't researched the actual Howland patent that closely but this is what I have observed first-hand working on the triggers.

Hope this helps.

Dan

Thanks Dan for the great information.
Best wishes,
PhysDoc

Howard Miller seemed to be attached to small diameter music wire for his switching springs and in at least one case, used it as a cam.

If some think the Hunter One Trigger looks complicated, which it isn't, look at an Infallible trigger.

Chuck - I think the Millers were on to something - I've yet to see one of those music wires fail! Pretty ingenious...but I'm biased, as you know.

JDW - they are known as "FALLIBLE" triggers in our shop. Haha!

Dan