When new, they lined the walls of the farmer's supply & feed, or perhaps the local hardware store. Not much to speak of in the pride of ownership department way back when.
Displayed with the non-sporting axe and shovel of hard work - a gentlemen's gun not.
But!
It was the best the old sod could afford, and how he loved and cared for it.
Today, the white cotton glove/deep pockets crowd will show the gun around at the club telling of it's chase and minty-ness.
It's day has come, but perhaps not in the field again.
This farmer's tool, has gone up-towne and how sad it must be.

I don't think the farmers wife is going to use her burl bowl to slop the hogs from anymore either!
Jim

Lowell do you stay up all night thinking of this stuff? Just wondering.

I've been curious Lowell why this bothers you so much?

Sad? I would think he'd get a good laugh out of it at the very least.

Lowell, as Freud would say, "Tell me about your childhood".

A wet bird never flies at night.

All except the NID! They are still on the job and still doing the heavy lifting!!
Working the fields and looking with disgust at the once proud Parkers and Foxes and LC Smiths who are now in the house warm and cozy sipping tea by the fire afraid to come out!!!
Stored away for the big profit that awaits their owners!!!
But what's even worse is what is happening to Winchester's fearsome Model 12 with its sinister reputation derived from hard fought battlefields in numerous wars, even their owners are seeing the dollars signs and are hoarding them away for the future!!! How the mighty have fallen or should I say softened!!
All the best

I think the Funeral Gun post set him off...

Many of the threads do have a certain sameness...

And now, Lowell and treblig, by the powers vested in me by the great state of confusion, I pronounce you man and wife!! You may kiss.

Old Sods pride is behind the door near hidden but easily accessible box of Estate Cartridge 'Special Tactical Bushshot Load' #4. Always on duty.

There are reoccurring themes, and I guess this is mine.
Never much interested in the nuts 'n bolts of guns/rifles - but interested in the social implications both past and present of these things.

And you (including me this time) continue to respond to these ramblings, thereby enforcing the Pavlovian response to attention.

Lowell did you notice Robert Chambers Pavlovian remark to me in the "Damascus Explained" thread...

Field grades are field grades... of nearly any make, ever heard the phrase,"They made 1000's of those things"?? The only real sad thing is the price some are willing to pay to some special highly regarded online dealers. Maybe even sadder... the fact that the dealers are actually attending shows, sales, auctions (and/or paying someone else to) to pick up these guns to sell at 3 times the price.
Not a bash on field grades, I have plenty, just a reality check.

I paid $1200 for 12ga Sterlingworth ejector of equal condition to the 20br gun found on page 142 of AH Fox book 2004 ed. Honestly, the thing is worth about $600, but thanks to Thorny I wanted one REALLY BAD. Gee, thanks for the comment R.R. I really needed a reality check.

Don't know why field grades get dissed so much. Who in the right mind would hunt chukar on a 45 degree slope on loose rock (sometimes in the snow) with a +20k gun in their hand when a slip and fall is a sure thing or leave their heirloom upland gun in the truck at the boat launch whilst duck hunting when car prowlers at hunting sites are all too common nowadays. Seems there is more opportunity in the field for the field grades than the fancy jewels; those are best left for the club range or den to impress the unworthy.

Again, no 'dissing' of the field grades, I agree, they kill birds just as well as a graded gun... they don't know the difference. At the same time, not everyone hunts on loose rocks on a 45 degree slope and everyone has their own comfort zone. Nothing that I own is reserved for the range, nor has anyone been in my 'den' for years. I tend to purchase what makes me happy... or to sell to online dealers.
Yet, once again, the point of my once subtle post was... get to some gun shows, estate sales, auctions(not big gun auctions), garage sales... lots of poor ones, but the good stuff is where you find it. Most of the good deals online are gone within hours, many, minutes, some dealers/sellers leave the guns up for months, others take it down as soon as they get an offer. Most of us have a non-gundealer job here and can't spend the time to catch most deals. Beyond all of that, better to see a gun in person and walk away, than to pay to see one poorly represented. Most guns seem to photograph better than in reality.
Just my opinion, no more, I don't want to ruin my good thing.


Pj, after bashing every known American gunmaker since this board started.... why bother?? Or is this a new leaf as with LG??

Paul, your Sterlingworth ejector is a country doctor's gun, and not your run-of-the-mill flea-market rural tool!

Country doctors gun....yOu got a crystal ball you can look into.

When Gunbroker Ed is through everyone can have a pristine field grade.

Got to love Lowell's threads they bring us all together whether in a state of confusion or otherwise at least were not at each other's throats!!! No....Wait.... Strick that last comment. I just read some of these other posts.....oh well!
All the best

It's the Pavlovian barking LG is after. Woof! Actually, I think most of the ones Lowell sees belonged to the boys of the Kansas City machine. Probably easier to jump out of your Essex or Packard with a really short-barreled--er uh--Beesley.

jack

Field grades were never meant for the loft/condo/retirement villa dweller. No matter how well appointed the study, no matter the eighteen year old scotch. Gun condition can only be taken so far - and then one has to play-up into a gentlemen's gun.
A high condition tool - is still a tool.

Jeez......Anyone these days that doesn't have a nice Sterlingworth or VH or such in their safe couldn't be considered a savy SxS man and probably wouldn't be very welcome to the club. You have to keep track of what is "IN"!

The Sterlingworth, is the gun of the millennium - you'd be L7 without one.

I kinda agree with Lowell, but from a different angle.

The cottage industry of "artisans" who strive to reinvent Winchester and Parker history is robbing these lines of much of their allure. Do I really want to spend a lifetime studying correct Parker configurations and finishes so I can still be taking a $30k risk? And as fast as I can learn what's "correct", the level of sophistication among refinishers continues to improve at an even faster pace.

My mentors, who could recognize real original configuration and condition, are dying off. I am amazed at some of the guns that get passed off as originals at prominent auctions, gun shows, and shops. And it's getting worse.

Nowadays, I'm alot more comfortable buying field grades and/or high grades with honest wear (yeah, I know what "distressing" means). The fact that this lowers the acquisition price is just a bonus. I can't understand the economics of some of the primped-to-NIB field grade post-war M12s I've seen; but I don't think the specialists in "distressing" have been mucking these guns.........yet.

Sorry for the rant.

Sam

It goes well with DKNY overalls.

One man's reworked Parker, is another's original.
Even the best get fooled from time to time.
If one is not going to give a Sherlockian effort on a real minty smallbore Vhe - it would better to pass on it.
After all, the business of reworking-up Parkers to new, is nothing new.
I wonder how many Parker buffs have gone the way of the ouija board?

Wait, wait.
The point is they are old doubles. We all know that for the most part, field guns were the same basic guns as the high grades just in different pants. We can admire the art of the engravers, the slightly better fit and finish and the beautiful old wood on the high grades. And, we can equally, but in a different way, admire the guns themselves as mechanical things.
The field grades are non-the-less things which mark a time in man's history which coordinated the evolution of metallurgy, chemistry(gunpowder) and mechanical engineering with the social, cultural and hunting development of civilized man. A field gun can be a kinetic work of art. Just swing it and shoot it. Open it and close it. Put it together and take it apart. They are functionally beautiful and important historically.
I think that is what draws most of us here together.
Otherwise, we can just go get a modern gun and shoot it at whatever is left to shoot.
Am I ranting?
Regards, Jake

Queen Lowell and homOjoe are just a couple of lonley mos who live too far apart to get a hotel room where they can both have their way with Lowell's Remington 1900. Lowell even has a pet name for his objects of affection "Remmy" and "Brummie" and "Boss Pair"...He just wants to taste Remmy's mechanical fluids, what's wrong with that...Queen Lowell would have his way with your double, if homOjoe would hold it down for him...

This is how I am going to respond to every Queen Lowell and homOjoe post, until they decide to allow me to return to neutral academic postings...until they say "truce" I'm going to point out all the object erotica that drives these objectophiles...in fact I'm even going to hang some unfair/non-applicable bullshit on them, like they do to myself and others..

Mr. Chambers:

Please do not write anything more like your recent post. This is a wonderful forum where we can all learn something about a subject and hobby very dear to us. I understand that there can be some annoying posts tacked on to very worthwhile threads, but that doesn't mean we should retaliate like you are. I think if you let it go, in time, it will die of its own accord. You will drive away any support you may have for your point of view if you continue with this kind of writing. I am an eager student when the contributors are worthy of my attention. Pleae don't dissappoint me.

Ed Pirie
West Topsham, Vermont

Hey Queen Lowell and homOjoe,
How do you like me now? Get out here you bitches and defend yourselves or say truce...either way, if you don't let me be, I will continue to play it offensively JUST LIKE YOU...now get your gossipin' butts out here and tell everyone that will no longer continue bashing me...you can put this whole matter to rest in less than 5 minutes. One thing for sure, I was not going to let you take advantage of the already established decorum at the "Damascus explained" thread, which is exactly the shield you exploit.
Now get out here and declare the conditions of a truce, meaning that you will promice to keep your mouths in check so that I may follow suit...in fact, I must insist that you agree to treat everyone with decency...c'mon ladies...where are you?

Ed Pirie,
I truly apologize, but where were you when HJ and QL were posting Povlovian crap about me a few days ago? Why don't your standards apply to these jerks? Why didn't you ask them to stop? Do you enjoy it when they do it to others, or were you simply unaware? Does your ignorance of their behavior now give you clear perspective enough to deter me from requesting a truce?

Too bad...I want a truce...even if I have to hammer it out of them...

Did it ever occur to you that they could end this in 5 minutes if they wanted? Don't you get it? They get off on this stuff! That's why they choose to attack a different member every few weeks...please don't enable these cyber wankers any further and ask them to stop bashing board members.

Ed,
Are you kidding me with this quote?

"This is a wonderful forum where we can all learn something about a subject and hobby very dear to us"

Do you know that homOjoe actually accused a photograph of a black worker, at the Deforney factory, of stealing the gun being discussed, one piece at a time...in support of Lowells theory that the Deforney double rifle was a "lunchbox" special...

These two racist dogs bring liability to this bulletin system...and they strike from behind a supposed sheild of decorum...suppose a black collector had read those postings...what about a black kid....and you want to defend these vicious racists...what gives?

nOw he's calling us both racists dOgs again...

As far as my comment that you say is racial....it was a jOke. That's all...ever hear the song Well Fare Caddilac.

Get your mind out of the gutter Robert'O...if that's possible.

Only thing yOu'll hammer out of me is a headache...better take 2 aZpirin and call dOcta jOe in the AM.

Why not just ignore HJ & L in the future? If you buy into their stuff, it only promotes more of the same and in this case, it takes three to tango.
John

W/O BS these are reasons given in random order why I bought my first American classic:

found it on my birthday (some things are meant to be)
Lowell Glenthorne
Michael McIntosh publications: The Gun Review, Ansley H. Fox-The Man, The Legacy in Second to None....

mechanically new (no CC wear on knuckle, action face, ...) 6.5lb 12br with well-timed ejectors
AH Fox site with possibilty of getting letter from Mr. Callahan
it was made before my parents were born when grandpops was a young man
...........

PJ, your ejector Sterlingworth is the cream of the crop of the much loved field grades. No gun was better in it's time.

LG:

How does someone with only "nailfile and dental floss in their toolkit" go about vetting for originality and condition? Most guys got at least a bore mike which will measure up a few priorities and also detect those pits midway while you're draggin it out of the bore. W/T gauge can be useful also. As for letters, you can buy Callahan letters for thousands of "white" Fox guns. You guys been pickin on Bob again and now he'll never tell us more about Emil Flues.

jack

You need the following tools: QUALITY magnifying glass, compact 3-piece cleaning rod with attachments (some lazzzzzy folks don't bother to wipe the bore clean ), choke gauge, chamber gauge, fiberoptic bore light, snap caps, and the knowledge of how too determine concentricity and uniformity of bore channel by looking down the barrels.
Who bothers to get factory letter for "shiny actioned" Fox gun.
PS. I found $1.50 AirAce 5 Spray Gun Cleaning Brushes from BigLots much superior to dental pics and floss!

I've heard you can determine straitness by the the reflections inside. Clearly, a low-angle view down the outside will tell you how well they're faired in the filing. I'd need a crystal ball to determine "concentricity" of bore channel (presumably meaning consistent wall thickness radially) without a w/t gauge and I doubt if I could look down a bore and tell you it's a consistent diameter all the way down. But I ain't Superman

jack

I do the best I can kindly ol' Rabbit!
Things have changed with the guns behind the kitchen door - have gone a little modern these days.
Lots of different seasons ahead up at the Woods, and I want to make the most of all of them...need to make room for deer and varmint time - so some old things have gone their merry way.
New is good, old not so good sometimes.
Need to be well rounded in the hood and a few too many shotguns only look good in the cabinet.

Yes, a nice Beretta self-feeder is twice the gun but not double. I understand.

jack

So how'd you do in the Vintagers shoot ?...I'm still trying to figure out what fell off your gun.

"shots at the RC"...you guys shooting at remote controlled airplanes ?

Let's just say I'm a 50% shooter at SC, Joe. That means 26X50 and maybe 53X100. Oddly, I have done better scorewise with a damascus Lefever and 7/8 oz but that was at Millbrook and maybe a higher % of skeety crossers and no so many floaters there. Apparently I can shoot that stupid teal directly overhead but not at forty yrds as I didn't hit a one of them. Blowing that short ramp off the Flues didn't help my concentration a bit. Check out p. 317 of Walt S.'s Ithaca Gun Co. From the Beginning for pictures of the swamped rib Flues barrels. Walt refers to the "ramps" at muzzle and breech as "nubbins of a rib" but of course the barrels do have an upper rib which is continuous and the "nubbins" are applied over it. Oddly the upper photo suggests to me that the gun shown may also have lost the rear bit as all I see is the rib extension. Anyway, both of these "ramps" are shaped to the concavity between barrels, file-cut matted on top; the rear piece notches around the extension and soldered in place. Very similar to the treatment on my Charlin. I found the piece over the rail in the swampy pond-edge on sta. 1. Had to backtrack as I did not notice it go missing immediately.

There was a four-man (100$ entry) shoot at a R/C airplane. My wife saw it; I didn't. All I saw was 175% prices and a dustbowl in the making.

jack

You're lucky you found it. If I had known they were shooting at RC airplanes I would've came...did they have a gauge restriction ?

Hard to dicker with 175 % pricing.

Robert,
Dont waste time, every club or group has a couple like Lowell who are extremely sad individuals that want to start something. He has posted way to many times on field grade guns, and his dislike for them, only to get someone to read his posts so he can feel important. I learned long ago, to leave them be, and they will hang themselves.

Chux I think Mr.Weber sent out a warning about this very kind of thing...kidding around is one thing but an attack on someone is another...What's sad is that you would make a comment like you just made.
I think Lowell is rather cheerful myself...even if he does like field grades...lol

I have great time for Lowell G,have enjoyed his posts for ages.
I find Mr Chambers more annoying than either lowell or hOmie when he gets on this personal stuff....just my humble opinion.
franc

Field grades are my favorite American guns, but they were never meant to end-up pristine & minty - used and treated kindly is best for me.
When new, they were what they were and I don't think high condition changes this much.

Chux,
Thanks for the kind words...You are not alone in your thinking, many members have emailed me with words of support...Don't fret about mOjoe's post...he thinks nothing about elevating serious threads to racial hatred...He and Lowell bring liability to this system. I was reminded in one of the emails, that they have every right to be here, their "orientation" does not preclude them from participating, and besides, they give the board that "feminine touch"...four thousand nine hundred eighty two posts of nothing but fluff. I've tried to distance myself, but they won't allow it.

There yOu go again...

I usually enjoy Lowell and Homeless Joe. No one makes me read everything they write, but often it is a pleasant read and with a little "tongue in cheek." I wish that Robert and now, Chux would back off on their attacks of Lowell and Homeless Joe. They seem to be relentless in their pursuit.

Ed Pirie
West Topsham, Vermont

"...never meant to end up...", but did

Robert you have now stepped over the threshold and become a keyboard punk. You are a guy who sits behind the security of you laptop and feels free to write homosexual insults about people you don't know that would likely result in you visiting an oral surgeon if you had the fortitude to speak them face to face. Grow up and start acting like a gentleman or just stay away from the keyboard for a while.

And, yes.......I would say this to you face to face!

Mr Blair,
You obviously don't understand, it is I on the defense, not the offense...I only want these guys to leave me alone...I will not allow these posters to just bash me any longer...Lowell could have ended this a week ago, he chose not to...every three weeks or so they pick a new member to bash...now you can support them by making threats of violence (needing an oral surgeon), but please, tell me why I must stay away from the keyboard but not them? Aslo, I didn't threaten anyone with violence the way you have. All they have to do is agree to leave me alone, so that I can follow suit...but they won't...I certainly won't to continue to run roughshod over me because you threatened me with violence...3 years with Recon keeps me from being worried about tough guys like you...

That's a nice field grade isn't it rObert....must've belonged to a 'gentleman' don't you think ?

Well Robert, I agree that you are a tough guy but I'm not and there are no threats that have been issued to you by me. Perhaps your reading comprehension is not what it once was.

I'm sure that your Recon buddies would be proud of your conduct here online but I'm not. Would you have called the one you disliked the most in your unit a "hOmO"? I doubt it.

You are acting like a childish and churlish old crank and disrupting the normal ebb and flow of the board. There is nothing I can do about it but to point it out to you, hope it finally dawns on you and you realize what a ass you are being.

Having experienced the absolute inanity of the Shotgun Sports "skeet" board a few yrs. ago, I was very surprised at the nearly universal helpfulness of Gunshop contributors. A few digs and occasionally that schoolmarmish "Oh really, rabbit" when I really put my foot in my mouth. I also didn't much care for "gentlemen" who got bored and decided to crosstalk about classic cars in the middle of someone else's thread. I was always suspicious that this was an indirect way of saying "This is really so ho-hum!" You know who you are (Ted S.) But there's the line about when in Rome so I believe you adjust your personal preferences to allow a bit of leeway for the other guy to breathe (and talk and even twaddle) in his own way. I wouldn't think a thing of discussing bikes with Parris George or the Fighting Blue Hens with Bill if he were still around and I might just do it smack in the middle of your thread. There are some true masters here who display a self-effacing modesty and of course some who don't. If Robt. Chambers is looking for desciples to sit at his feet, many of us might be willing to play that role. But it's a party line in the forum; many will lurk, some will flatter, and some won't give you no respect whatsoever. A little cross-chatter, an occasional dustup, some misunderstandings--all can be made right. But the argument ad hominem always invites a counterpunch and things get out of hand. Anyway, I've got accustomed to LG and the HomelesS OnE warts and all. I haven't quite got used to Mr. Chambers' often expressed requirements for a close reading of the "relevance" or "on topic" issue. He may have a point but it's a bigger world than just shotguns.

jack

Two closet queens on one page........oh jeez what is it Larry says about the pygmies ???? Funny thing is I can't find anywhere that anyone said anything bad about RC...

Robert'O stOle one of my stArs...life will never ne the same.

Hey I had 2 come up missing in the last week........

I just bumped you to 5 stars but nothing happened....

Didn't figure I deserved 5 in the first place but they had been there and now they are gone, think we need to do a little recon????

I'll be glad when hunting season starts...

Back to the subject, that is one sweet field grade NID Yeti posted, sure would like to have a set of all the gauges in that condition.

and speaking of mint field grades, here is rare one from Julia:

Lot 3213 : *PARKER TROJAN DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN WITH RARE ORIGINAL BOX.

Pre-Auction Price Estimate:
$9,000 - $12,000

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Title:
*PARKER TROJAN DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN WITH RARE ORIGINAL BOX.

Description:
*PARKER TROJAN DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN WITH RARE ORIGINAL BOX.SN 227251. Cal. 12 ga. Built on a No. 2 frame with 28" Trojan steel bbls choked FULL/MOD with tapered concave matted rib, sgl bead, extractors & dbl triggers. Receiver is not decorated except for maker's name on each side. Mounted with straight grain American walnut with flat checkered splinter forearm & semi-pistol grip stock, 14" over a serrated hard rubber buttplate. Accompanied by its rare orig 2-pc cardboard box with its orig label on end fully identifying this shotgun as found. Also accompanied by its three orig Parker hang tangs, one of which also fully identifies this shotgun as found. Another is the owner's directions tag and the third is the ad for Signet Oil. Bore diameter: left - .733, right - .731. Bore restrictions: left - .041, right - .022. Wall thickness: left - .034, right - .034. Drop at heel: 2-5/8", drop at comb: 1-3/4". Weight: 7 lbs. 5.76 oz. CONDITION: Extremely fine. Does not appear to have been fired. Bbls retain 99%+ strong orig Parker blue and receiver most of its orig bright orig case colors, slightly faded on bottom front. There is visible dried grease on trigger plate. Trigger guard has flaked to a mostly blue/gray patina. Wood has a few scattered, very minor storage marks and retains virtually all of its fine orig Parker finish. Mechanics are crisp, bright shiny bores. Box is missing a small section of one corner of lid, otherwise is extremely fine. Label is slightly water stained & yellowed with some chips missing from edges but is mostly intact and everything is completely legible. Hang tags are equally fine. 4-31617 JR251


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Auction Details
Preview Dates & Times:

Friday, October 5, 9:00am-5:00pm EST
Saturday, October 6, 9:00am-5:00pm EST
Sunday, October 7, 9:00am-5:00pm EST
Monday, October 8, 8:00am-10:00am EST
Tuesday, October 9, 8:00am-10:00am EST
Wednesday, October 19, 8:00am-10:00am EST

Heck I'd have to shoot it...