Just picked up an ejector 12GA swamped rib double for a couple hundred bucks. Can anyone help me identify it's maker?
On the flats is: *N over stick figure of lion over PV * P EL over candle stick? over diamond with 12C in it over a crowned oval with ELG in it. Then the number P.1K242.3 Gold inlayed "S" on safety and matching serial numbers throughout. Markings on bbls just underneath action is "choke 17.5/18.3 then those weird scriptive EL's I cited earlier. I know the E is an E but the L I'm not 100% on because its slightly superimposed over the E. The E and the L is like hand written script. Hereare some pix. I'm wondering if its Neumann Freres? Don't really have any idea.
Here are some pix.

3 of 4 pictures don't show up for me and the one that does is too blurry for information such as proof marks. However, you did a very good job of describing a set of typical Liege, Belgium, proofmarks. I'd guess not a Neumann as they would/should have marked their guns. Best guess is a "cottage" gun by one or more workmen to make some beer money. If it is in any kind of condition at all, you got a very good deal. There would have been nothing wrong with its functionality when it left the Liege Proof House, that is for sure.

Doubt you will ever know who made it. As for quality, looks to be a fairly typical decently finished Belgian boxlock. BTW, the maker's name is not an indication of quality - you have to figure that out for the individual gun. Most makers supplied a wide range of quality. Careful polish, ripple free barrel striking and boring, engraving coverage and quality of engraving,and wood quality are the hallmarks of quality. These will usually occur in harmony - rarely will yo find a low quality gun with a lot of any one of these characteristics.

You'll need to try again on the barrel flats.
Just put together a 'Belgian Maker's and Proof Marks' album which explains most of the stamps
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181

You really need better resolution on the pics. The candlestick you refer to is a Perron(Tower/Steps). The intertwined E&L is for the provisional proof. The P.1K242.3 should be 1Kg 242.3 - weight. With the 12C in a diamond, I would venture to guess if may have been made between 1890 & 1924. Better definition pics would help.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks all:

Yeah, there is no name anywhere on the gun. Probably like you said, a cottage gun for beer money. If its as old as 1899-1924 I would be surprised because if so, it's in the best condition for even 1925 of any used gun I've ever seen. It's also got 2 3/4" chambers which I realize may have been added, but still.
The bores are mirror, there is only one very small minor rust pit that doesnt appear very old on the bbl exterior. In fact, I rubbed most of it off already with some 0000 steel wool and break free. That said, should I limit load pressures in this gun?
Doesnt the PV indicate its fine for modern powder? What do those choke numbers translate into as far as cyl/Imp Cyl/Mod/Full etc?
What does the D=70/20.6 mean? Thanks. I will try and get netter resolution pic's of bbl flats.

Also, don't know if it matters but the engraving pattern on the dolls head is oak leafes. The rest of the gun is just very fine scroll everywhere. I know it didnt show up well in the pix. But I thought maybe the oak leafes might be an indicator or style that a particular maker used. Not sure if dolls head was the right term there, but I'm talking about the area right in front of the top lever. Also the Gold inlaid "S" on the safety might help.

The 70 might be 70mm chambers. But good pic of the barrel flats would tell all, or use the site referenced above.

So Rocketman are you saying that a arm stamped Purdey may indeed not be a Purdey? Or does that just apply to sleeving or lining?

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

If you were relying on the name Purdey to establish an individual gun's quality and you encountered one of their graded sidelocks or a boxlock, you would be set up for a royal (wait, that would be in the case of an H&H) hosing. The name is important to market price at a level of about 2 fold. Actual original quality grade and current condition each are worth 20 fold. Sleeving, refinishing, restoration, etc. factor into current condition.

Rocketman:

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to ask after all the many pages on the Purdey and the barrel sleeving or lining found somewhere around here.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Neumann Freres is a good guess...T W Stake may be a closer guess...somehow those two names are associated

70 mm (2 3/4") chambers
20.6 = .811" is chamber (not bore) diameter
18.3 = .720"
17.5 = .689"
Gotta know the bore, but if it's .729 that would be IC and Full-nice chokes for about anything.
And yes, I'd certainly limit to 1 1/8 oz loads.

And here's infro about Neumann Freres with pics of their trade marks

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/a%20neumann%20freres%20gb.htm

Yeah Rebdoc, that's the page I looked at to make me think it was neumann freres. Now that I look again, i'm even more sure.

I noticed that the guns on the neumann freres heading all have that *N on them. Mine also has that *N. Could that be the mark of Neumann? Is that what the *N means?

Hey guys:

Can't get a good picture so I will draw the markings on the bbls flats. Try to disregard any aspects of this bad drawing except the markings, Here goes:

\

Oh by the way. someone indicated a date of MFG for this gun from 1898 - 1924. Did they chamber 12GA for 2 3/4" shells (70mm) back in 1924? This gun was originally chambered to 2 3/4".

I think this gun is newer than that but I could be wrong.
The last 2 digits of it's 4 digit serial number is 77. Could that mean anything? I looked at the alphabetical legend of date codes but don't see anything obvious on the flats that stands out as such. There is a "P" under the lion maybe thats it. I dont know.

Jigman:

Most of the marks are referenced above. The crown over "ELG" in an oval is for final black powder proof and the semi-smokeless or smokeless powder proof is the Lion over "PV" stamp. Most of the other "*" over a letter is an inspector's mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

also, just ahead of the flats on each bbl is another of the "EL" scripts, then the word "choke" 17.5 on one bbl and the "EL" "choke" and 18.3 on the other bbl.

So, nothing to indicate maker on this?
Where else may I find clues? How about the serial number?

Try the inside of the bottom plate. That's where my 1937 Belgian SxS by Jamar Freres is marked; the only place I have found.

Cheers,

Bob

Do I have it correct that any belgian gun with the rhombus on point with 12C in it is 1924 or earlier. Because that is on my bbl flats.

To get a better picture set up your camera on a tripod or if you don't have a tripod set it up with whatever and then use the timer so that you're not holding the camera when the picture is taken, also I've found getting some distance away and using my zoom lense keeps the auto-focus from focusing on the top of the barrel lug.
Steve

That is correct. Post 1924 the gauge and shell length were inside an Omega lying.

Wow!!! this gun is old. Will it really be alright to shoot smokeless, modern shells through it? What pressures should I limit it to? Maybe 3/4 - 1 1/8oz@ sub 9000psi?

No question this gun is older than 1924. It was made for 2 3/4" length shells (70MM) but it wasn't made for modern 2 3/4" shell pressures, especially SAAMI standard 12ga shells as currently manufactured. If it were mine I would want to stay below 1 1/8oz and 9000psi as you suggested. There are plenty of 12ga loading formulae which will give you that and provide full performance. If you don't reload, might check out some of the vintage loads available from RST and Polywad. I use 2 1/2" loads from RST in a gun at least as old as yours.

Every mark you have described is related to the proofing of the gun. Both the gauge mark and the barrel weight are of the style that was used before 1924.

The barrels weighed 2.738 lbs at the time of proof.

20.6mm is the bore .811".

Choke 17.5mm = .689", 18.3mm .713""

The service pressure during this period for a 12ga was expressed in a load. In this case as 5.8 grams of powder and 35.5 grams of shot. This applies only to the Liege proof house around 1906. Later (post 1924) the service pressures were increased.

Nothing indicates a makers mark. Serial numbers do not indicate year or maker. The *N, etc are controller's marks, which tell us nothing during this period.

Judging by the sling swivels attached, this gun was originally used in Europe.

Pete

But does your gun have 2 1/2 chambers or 2 3/4? Or, does it matter? i reload, so no problem getting low pressure loads.
I've got some great recipes for low pressure loads from 3/4 -1 1/8 oz. That with some hard nickel shot should do the trick for roosters & Chukar. I will get busy soon since doves open in 8 days. yee haww. Also bring my Browning ultra XS is 28GA which is great for dove.

so 5.8 grams of powder is 89.50 grains and and 35.5 grams of shot is 1 1/4 ounces. Therefore it was proofed to 1 1/4 ounce loads pushed by 89.50 grains of powder and whatever pressure that would create. But, one should probably stay well below what the gun was proofed for right? So, I'd be safe with 1 1/8oz loads at 8500-9000 PSI I would think - no?

jigman48 no one is going to tell you that it will be safe with any load. We can't examine the gun so we don't know if it would be safe. Take it to a good double gunsmith and let him tell you if it's safe.

17.5/25.4=.689" ;; 18.3/25.4=.720", might want to double check your math on that 18.3 dimension.
Choke on Belgian guns was marked by several methods over the years, but generally when two dia's were given as a fraction as appears on this one they indicate both bore & choke dia's. I would thus suspect the bbl marked 17.5/18.3 had a .720" bore dia & a .689" choke dia or .031" of choke constriction. If only one size is given along with the word choke it shows bore size & simply shows the bbl was choked, but not to what extent. I believe though in all cases the bore dia was given as this was the important dimension as regardss to proof.
The 89.5 grains of powder would have been Black Powder & equals to about 3¼ drams, so the gun was proofed for a 3¼-1¼ load @ then current pressure levels, as stated not todays SAAMI standard. "IF" in proper condition the load you mention should fall within those parameters.

jigman84
Try to keep pressures and recoils low, not only to protect the barrels but also the wood. In the case of your gun I'd worry more about cracking/splitting the stock then damaging the barrels. BTW I worked one fall about 19 years ago outside of Lind WA. I remember seeing lots of pheasants during my work in the field and my travels back and forth to the job site. Lind was a nice little town, in fact I found the general population on the eastern side of the Cascades much more open and welcoming then those on the west side.
Steve

Miller,

Well, I ran it again. Of course you are right! That is what I get for posting at 2am. You are also correct that Black Powder should be assumed. The smokeless loads of that day simply do not equate to modern smokeless.



jigman48,

I would assume at this point that if you sneeze through those barrels they will turn to dust and the stock will become a pile of oil soaked splinters.

The point is that gun has to be examined in person by a competent gunsmith, as others have said. I purchased a perfectly good gun about the same age. I had it examined. Upon disassembly a crack was found in the receiver. Would the next shot have destroyed? I did not want to know, so I paid to have it welded. You can not judge what you can not see.

Pete

Lots of good infro on this 1924 Neuprez Frères

Left: 17.3/18.4 = choke of .681 / bore of .724
Right: 17.6/ 18.4 = choke of .693
D = 70/20.6 - 70mm / .811" chamber (12g)

The reason I use 2 1/2" shells is they are below the pressure limits I decided were safe for my particular gun. Since you are going to reload, you can certainly use 2 3/4" shells and load to your comfort level on the pressures. Personally if I reload for a gun with 2 1/2" chambers I might still use the longer plastic shells (thinner walls projecting into forcing cone than paper shells) but with the pressure still appropriate for the gun. You can go to a roll crimp and lower the pressure a bit too. Lower pressure doesn't necessarily mean lower velocity.

If a fellow wanted to have some factory loads, here is another option for the older 12ga double:

"Federal Vintage Gold Medal Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 7/8 oz #7-1/2 Shot Box of 25 (Not for Use in Semi-Autos)
This vintage ammunition was produced specifically for MidwayUSA to the following specifications:

7/8 oz shot, 1200 feet per second velocity, 5,000 pounds of chamber pressure

These specifications were designed to be kind and gentle to all older break-open shotguns that are safe to shoot with modern ammunition. This ammunition is also ideal for trap and skeet practice, or for use as a light game load - wherever a 20 gauge load would be acceptable."

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=417403&t=11082005

I have shot a lot of this and it has delivered very good performance.

Doug

Jigman, considering all said above Doug's suggestion sounds very sound.

OTOH, if you shoot well with a 28 and reload, I don't see a need for more than
a 7/8oz load in the old girl.

JMTC.

Nice find btw.

JC(AL)

Hey!!! Just found some marks on this gun I had not seen before.
On underside of bbls just behind the male piece that inserts into the forend is "JM" and just forward of that piece is "JO".

Also, just in front of where it reads Choke on the bbls there is some strange markings that may be greek or something. Nore symbols than letters that are very small. Plus, here are some new Pix.

Also just found (opposite of the other two sets of initials on bbls) an "LJ"

Jman, do follow instruction posted above for picture taking. We'll all profit.
A lot of detail can be had with little effort and inexpensive equipment.
Here is an example:


JC(AL)

Well, I just got back from shooting 4 rounds of 5-stand with the little gem today and it performed remarkably. Its a keeper and I shot it wayyy better than I do American Classics with their large amount of drop. This guns has more modern dimensions and I shot it equal to my 30" Browning GTS scores. The bbl length is only 26 3/4 too!. This will be a fantastic upland gun. I shot 1oz Win AA Xtra lites #8. I'm not exactly sure of pressu in those but heard they were in the 8-9000 PSI range.I will load up some 7/8 and 1oz loads next week in the 6-7500PSI range for future use though. The gun was very comfy to shoot and seemed to handle the Win Factory fodder just fine. Anybody know what PSI range those 1oz win extra lights are? I think this gun will be fine for this season and I will send it off to a master double smith next spring.

Well, diligence paid off...finally found and ID'd the maker of my new Guild gun. Here is my final piece of evidence. My gun has two of these trademarks on it the LJ and the "S".

It was built by a legion of belgians all of which were reputable.