Picked up a old "twin ports" damascus hammer 12 ga. and had the pleasure of putting some 21/2 shells thru it on clays, these old guns are alot of fun to shoot, smacked 20 of 25 on sporting clays. not bad for a gun i bought for 100 dollars that was hanging over some guys fireplace...deals can be had, just getting harder to find..

What are twin ports? Not pro-ported it it! Chuckle,
Mike

Chux:
How did you you determine it was safe to shoot? I'm asking because I started the thread on safety-testing a very nice old Husqvarna 15 with twist barrels, and will soon be receiving a Tisdale 16 from one of the folks here on the forum.

Mike I think "twin ports" is slang for SxS in Alabama.

Bill I looked at a Tisdale that was sold on Gunbroker or Guns of America a while back...I hope it's not that gun.
The bores were so pitted a Cock Roach could hide in the pits.

I checked the one I saw was a 12 not a 16.

Tisdale. For what it's worth I searched for information on him and discovered that all of their records were destroyed in the blitz when Whitehall Street went up in blazes. He did have two sons. One emmigrated to Canada and later became the mayor of Vancouver. The other headed to New Zealand and established a sporting goods firm that continues today--sort of a mini Cabelas. Phoned the decendent in New Zealand and they have no information on their great-grandad. Deadend.

Chux, ain't it great that in this modern world where today's latest and greatest is obsolete tomorrow, that some things just don't change. For all practical purposes a hammer gun made over 100 years ago is just as efficient as a brand new zip gun. After all, a shotgun is nothing more than a smooth tube that throws tiny chunks of lead out of the muzzle. Enjoy your "new" hammer gun and don't feel undergunned. I recently picked up a W. & C. Scott made in 1870 that is deadly on skeet. What a hoot!

I have a 20 bore tisdale (of NZ) sidelock, decent gun. Not a great gun. Like most Brit guns, judge them for the actual merits and condition of the gun, not the name. As to how do you know if it is safe, a visual inspection combined with a bore gage and a good knowledge of proofs goes a long ways, or you could have a guy who is familar with Brit doubles give it a look over.
Steve

Gee, I hope we're talking about those with: flat ribs, side-clips, no safety things designed for high volume "Blood Sport" shooting. You would not want to put too much mileage on those game guns by using them for sporting games right?

In our Oregon shoot one lucky fellow got a 25 out of a 25 on both skeet and five stand with a 1912 Claybourn. They can be shot fine if they fit. He has owned the gun less than nine months.

Twin ports is printed on the side plates of this gun, i could find nothing at all on it, other then 1888 (date?) under barrels.
Bill, I have a very scientific method to determine if its safe to shoot, I strap it down, put a proper shell in it, tie a string to the trigger and get very far away and behind something and pull! I inspect it, and repeat untill i feel safe.

I ran straight in skeet with my 1892 Ithaca Crass using low pressure smokeless loads.

I do hope this "testing" method is in jest. It may shoot that time but what happens when it lets go in your hand and near other people.

Proof testing is best left to the proof house. Have a local smith with a understanding of double guns go over it and include wall thickness in the process.

Low pressure ammo is a must if it is declared safe. If it is not in proof hang it on a wall.

I shoot older damacus every day- but they are in proof and I shoot proper loads. With that they will play for many more years with proper care.

al

99% of the American damascus guns would be wall hangers then.
Proof is a fleeting thing, here today and gone tomorrow!
Who knows what gnaws away in those twisty things while you sleep?

Lowell,

I think you are way wrong- the English depended on a proof system and the Americans depended on each manufacturer to acheive proof- just a diference in infrastructure.

Many American damascus guns are viable to shoot- and some of them may need to go to proof to make sure they are safe. At the very least every gun should be looked at by a smith and the condition determined but backyard proof tests do not work and prove nothing but the gun fires that time.

al

I'm a hypocrite because I counsel caution and inspections for others in these matters and for decades blithely and innocently fired the hottest CIL "blue Imperial" duck loads without incident in twist, damascus, laminated hammerguns. I still do but It's all low-pressure now. In more than 65 years of shotgunning I've never seen a rupture and only one bulge. I'm also agnostic about "proof to make sure they are safe." Nothing is safe or certain about explosions in guns, particularly if they are old.

Lets face it, the risk of burst is greater simply because a domestic vintage damascus piece is almost ceratinly going to be a weapon over a hundred years old. If shot in the past by the "village idiot" with "nitro mags" the risk of metal fatigue is considerable!
Gee, do you really think most of those really OLD domestic doubles are worth sending over to a smith who is going to "prep" them for submission to Euro proofhof?

First & Foremost let me say, I am not advocating it, but I fail to see the reasoning behind;; If I stick a high brass "Express" load (max pressure 11.5K) in a gun & fire it with no damage, why this would result in possible irrepareable damage while if I pay $300.00+ to ship to England & they fire a 16K+ pressure load through it none will occur. The theory behind proof is if it holds up to one shot of a given pressure it should hold up indefinately to a pressure of about 2/3 that intensity.

How would you personally assure that after 11,5K shell firing no damage has occured? What would you measure?

aps,
I guess I am just a idiot, I Have been shooting damascus for along time, and never felt the need to send one off to get "proof" I measure for wall thickness and I test shoot them. And of course i use a proper shell with about 7k to 8k psi, no more. I have yet to have any problems. I seriously doubt I could find anyone around me that "proofs" old shotguns.

Sherman Bell makes the disclaimer that the miserable failure of the Remington proof loads to do more than ruin the breech lockup and wood of some very decrepit damascus examples doesn't speak to the probability that we won't be able to blow one with our puny 7/8oz. loads at 5-6-7000psi. Sounds like something we'll all establish to our own satisfaction--or not. Some of us can't help being encouraged by statistically invalid experiments. Some of us still believe everything we read on an ancient shell box. I should know as I've belonged to both camps.

jack

I purchased a damascus L.C. Smith about ten years ago. I was banned from shooting it at my sportsmans's club. "Damascus guns aren't safe". I had it proofed at the Birmingham Proof House and have a really cool certificate to show for it!
Anyway, I shoot it regularly with LP ammunition. The fellow I bought it from said he'd shot "all kinds of ammunition through it", and it still passed proof!
Wouldn't go throught he hassle of having another one proofed though. Don't ask, don't tell is my policy. I've never been questioned when shooting it at other facilities.

Craig

When I shoot my twist damascus at a club, I am a bit careful not to advertise the fact, but I have been questioned about it. When asked, I am happy to explain that I have fired "x" of rounds through it so far without a problem (now over 700 in less than 6 months), and that I am using Federal's 7/8 oz low pressure (5,000psi) loads. The shotgun I use, while old, is in a very good state of preservation and should anyone wish to check it, I hand it over to them (and several fellow shooters have been rewarded with getting a chance to shoot it).

So far, the folks I have spoken to have not given me a problem. In my limited experience I have only seen frightening mishaps resulting from poorly reloaded ammunition, so based on my limited personal experience the clubs might be better off asking folks who are shooting reloads to leave, than someone who is shooting a vintage shotgun responsibly.

As for back yard proofing, nothing is without risk, but I would not tie my shotgun to a tire and put a heavy load through it to prove anything. I am comfortable sticking to the lower pressure loads, and as was stated above, each of us has to live within our comfort zones.

By the way one of my guest shooters of this shotgun having never shot a two triggered shotgun accidentally pulled both triggers at the same time- in effect subjecting the breach and the stock to a double charge---nothing resulted except a grin on everyone's face (but mine). All that "proved" was that it did not come apart- that time. It does not mean it wouldn't come apart on the 10th or 100th round.

More likely than not my (and our) vintage shotguns have seen a number of rounds of ammunition more powerful than the designers intended. As I understand it, when a shot charge moves down a barrel it flexes the metal, so sooner or later these things wear out--shooting heavy charges (for whatever the reason) can only hasten that day.

Doug

Fluid steel or damascus can fail- the only accident I have seen was a 20 O/U that burt at the chamber of the top barrel- that was fluid steel.

My point is have a qualified person check wall thickness and shoot low pressure. That is all that is required by US standards on US guns. But the back yard method can cause damage and proves little.

I have run across far to many English and european guns that "someone" has opens the chambers to 70mm etc... I don't want to own such a piece much less shoot it. I know of one dealer selling a BP proof Grant and telling prespective buyers it is fine to shoot with modern ammo.

al

I own and shoot seven damascus hammerguns , and friends at my club shoot ten or twelve different damascus guns and no one has ever proofed, or had them proof tested. My wife and myself, who both shoot damascus guns, go through 30 to 40 boxes a week - with no problems. All a proof load proves is that the gun held up one time to extreme presures - nothing more, nothing less. Does someone really think the damascus gun held up for over a hundred years and was unsafe ? Just use a little common sense when checking it. Modern guns just like damascus guns can and do blow up if miss used. Everyone I know uses shells under 7000psi in any older gun , damascus or otherwise. Paul

Doug's point about reloads is a good one. A stuck wad is not funny and occasionally I have been in attendance on a shooter who had to be requested to inspect for occlusion after a blooper or no powder discharge. Pumpgun or autoloader + doubles + bad 1st round = disaster. You'd think one down each barrel would be perfectly safe except some guys just won't look before reloading.

jack

I luv those pics of hunters in some of those DGJ articles. Few years ago there was an aricle with pics of couple guys goose hunting using pinfire doubles with damascus barrels. Me thinks those birds were shot with Benelli or Beretta autos and the pics were staged. Gee, do you think they carried those shells in coat pockets? I think it's time to drop the act, no?

Chuck H, nice Crass, I would love to post mine, but I have problems posting pics here..(not much of a computer guy!)

I have fired several twist & damascus guns with low pressure handloads, both smokeless & black. None of these have I had proofed or attempted to proof myself, didn't really seem worth the trouble in one case or the expense in the other. I Have Strapped one gun in a tire & fired it, not proofed it. I have never fired this gun otherwise & likely never will. Why? it has a split in the side of bbl about 14" up from the breech. I bought it as a parts gun with the bbl split & a taped up stock. It is a Lefever H with "London Twist" bbls. The split followed a weld line about ¼" long on left side of left bbl. Appearance was that it had been hit on a sharp cornered object & dented in badly & then fired in that condition. This resulted in the bbl cracking along the corner & one side of the split was still pushed in, but on the other side a little flap was lifted externally (could look right through at the opposite bore wall). I put a dent plug under it, raised the internal dent & hammered the external flap down to meet & it became extremely difficult to even see. Mostly out of curiosity I strapped it to the tire to see what would happen. I fully expected it to open up at the seam, it was after all already broken. I started with factory 3¼-1 1/8 loads & put several through it. "Nothing"!! I then went to some 3 3/4-1¼ loads & put several of these through it. These were the heaviest factory loads I had so then put a few 1 3/8 oz handloads I had, Still NaDA. What did I prove? in my estimation a big fat Nothing. However it is noted none of the loads I fired were equal in pressure to a proof load, but were higher in pressure than I shoot in my twist bbls.
My question is "Still" What?? inherent damage did I do to this gun, that would not occur by having a still higher pressur proof load fired through it, even by an Official ProofMaster, with official checks.
I still will not fire this gun from the shoulder, not because of any real or imagined damage I did by firing those loads, But BECAUSE I KNOW there is a crack up there close to where my left hand would fall & it goes completely through the bbl wall. Incidently the bores were quite rough with pitting as well. The gun still locks up tight though. With the ball joint screw completely removed the dolls head still brings it tight enough on face the top lever hardly passes center. Argue all you want, no one has convinced me that doesn't re-inforce an action bar.

A relic of a pinfire and shooting geese you say Paul?
I'd watch, from a city block away.
Powder-puff loads that work in those olden things and a big fat Christmas goose don't mix.
Takes a hefty charge, and that doesn't mix with those worst for the wear barrels.

Pictures can be staged....but I'm sure a Pin-Fire gun in a hunters hands is a very capable tool.

They were nice pre-choke era guns. I also seen pic of old dude next to elephant "shot with" 1885 vintage .500PBE. My guess is it fell to .458Win 475gr lathe-turned solid brass PMP projectile.

Yes, just like "Gun Dude" pictures of Bush and Kerry prior to last election. Next time they should throw some muuuud on those faces to make those pics more convincing!

Ooops, I meant hypoallergenic Lancome makup not muuuuud! I heard that BIG W is a sensitive fellow.

“Proofing” at home can be done if someone knows what they’re doing. You need the proper tools to take all the necessary measurements after the “Proof Load.” Personally, I don’t see much value to such a practice, but if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, then be my guest. But simply having your gun digest a stiff load without checking critical dimensions afterward is a waste of time, and needlessly abusive to the gun.

Bore obstructions, critically damaged guns, bad reloads and wrong ammunition is what causes guns to blow up 99.99% of the time. Most everything else are anomalies. Low pressure loads in Damascus guns is less about safety as it is just not abusing a classic gun. One has to keep in mind that the Damascus barrels aren’t the only old and inferior (by today’s standards) steel used in those guns.

A good visual inspection (provided you know what to look for) followed by mic-ing the bores is probably your best yardstick to determining if an old gun is safe to shoot.

Kev, "X-ray vision" is a must with non-fluid steel barrels. I would ask "Clark Kent" to have a look before shooting old gun equipped with them.

I can snap a photo of a clay target pulverized by my dammy 1894 Elsie "0". The old girl is now choked SK1+SK2 and has ran many 23's and 24's at the skeet range.

Craig

I like pictures,send them. It is such a pretty thing anyhow to see.