If you were looking for a 20 ga Mod 21, would you consider both original Winchester and CSMC? This gun would be shooting, not investment or collecting.

If it were me, I would get an original. Just my opinion. But some guys like the ones from CSMC and they have good luck with them.

I like having CSMC warranty in place! I have had their M-21 and always got great service when needed! New steel and springs on your shooter is a positive.

You are the person I had in mind, when I said some people have had success with them, Hal. 👍 Good luck!!

I’ve had both original 21’s and CSMC 21’s. Since you’re not collecting or investing, the CSMC gun is the absolute better choice! The workmanship is superior, as is the wood and metal. All 21’s are superb shooting guns but the CSMC gun would be a better fit for your specific needs. I’ve taken a 20 bore CSMC 21 to South America numerous times and put thousands of rounds through it with no ill effects. I’m sure my original 21 would have served well too, but I didn’t have to worry about the possible loss of a collectible shotgun during transit.

I always wondered- who does the engraving on the CSMC model 21 SXSs? I don't think it is Pauline Muerelle is it? I should have asked her when she was engraving mine.

Okay. After research I have found that CSMC has several different engravers doing the work on the Model 21s and the Fox SXSs. Thanks.

Jimmy-do you know if they sign their work? If so, where would that be located?

Just from what I have read, they will sign the gun if you ask them to. I guess some of them may be signed very small from what one person said. I just Googled the question and came up with three names for CSMC engravers. Jim Demunck, Diego Bonsi and Richard Roy. I believe Demunck does the Fox guns. I asked Pauline Muerelle to sign mine and it is initialed very small in the weeds along the border. You can just GOOGLE ---CSMC ENGRAVERS and get info.

CSMC took me to the cleaners on both a Model 21 and an A10.

Spend a little time doing some research on the net before spending your money. Their "No return" policy is there for a reason.

Exact same story I have witnessed, more than once. There is a single trigger 16 floating around that has never worked correctly, save curing people in a small circle of wanting anything to do with CSMC.

The prices asked on used guns in their advertising should be a big hint.

Best,
Ted

My story, I ordered a 21 with a set of 20 and 28 gauge barrels. Both 30". I could not hit the side of a barn with the 20 gauge barrels. I have heard they do not do a good job of regulating

I was recently “BONED” by the undesirables in Connecticut after a decade of purchases totalling well over six figures.
A quick 3k worth of immediate ill gotten gain was worth more to these geniuses than a long commercial relationship plus any future purchases.
Funny how “Like New”, “Original” and “Virtually Unfired” means different things to different people.

To the OP,
Buy Vintage from a reputable dealer or private party. Just my .02.

I have bought a few guns from them over the years now I’ve been very happy treating me very well. I know they handle a lot of guns. I’m not sticking up for them, but there are two sides every story I was at the southern side-by-side and bought another gun from them and and about Model 21 single trigger and regulation. The guy that won most of the tournament was using one of their guns I bought a gun for them last year for $6000. I couldn’t shoot it. I put it in an auction a pretty big one. And I netted $11,600 so I’m pretty happy and I bought from them at Southern. I was walking around with it other dealers wanted to buy it from me, but I didn’t wanna sell it. I had come into some money lately and I’ve been buying guns from them and others and another dealer and I am doing pretty well

Future's so bright, you gotta wear shades. Was Chris Farley your mentor? Wow...
JR

I bought a 1937 vintage Modrl 21 SxS 12 ga with double triggers and splinter fore end. It had new wood on it that looked factory new. I also had a CSMC over/under 20 ga model 21 in inventory at the time. The wood looked identical on both guns. Same color, same finish. They won't admit it but I believe they are making new wood using factory patterns and restocking vintage guns. They have all the Winchester tooling and patterns to do it.

Well, certainly they are "making" new wood using factory patterns and restocking vintage guns. You stated that your 1937 gun had new wood on it. So what else is new? What exactly is your point? Please clarify.

I shoot a CSMC Model 21 .22 rifle and it seems to work just fine. If it ever breaks down, at this price, I expect Tony will take care of me. In my opinion, and in my experience, he will do what is right.

Tony Galazan used to come to the National Gun Day Gun Show in Louisville 25 years or so, ago, when he first took over the Model 21 business. I could tell by his older 21s that he was buying up all the 21s he could, rebuilding them, maybe putting new wood on them and selling them for a profit. Nothing wrong or illegal about that. He never denied it. He is the authorized dealer now. Jaqua's just had a 12 gauge Model 21, with the old style wood (buttstock) on it, last fall/winter with double triggers that they said was rebuilt by Galazan. Someone bought it a couple months ago.

Not trying to derail this thread ?

I agree this gun is in wonderful original condition but what do you have to smoke to profess this unfired? Trigger wear, cartridge circles (specifically primer rings ) on the standing breech.
Short of being sealed in an original box it’s a bold claim to begin with but photos sure don’t back it up in my opinion.




https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1049205196

I hate to spoil the party, but why are the screws all boogered up/ turned the wrong way? I'd say someone has had the gun apart. Hmmmmmm......

I agree! The buggered screws are a dead giveaway that this isn't an unfired gun. The other item is the front trigger wear. The picture of it is poor but it almost looks like it's been welded for some reason. Nevertheless--Why would a front trigger have that much wear on a supposedly unfired gun?

The other interesting thing is this gun sold on GB a little over a week ago at over 7k and then showed back up a few days later with the same description. I'd sure ask the seller about what's up with that.

Trigger damaged and not refinished, wood chipped at various points, obviously refinished poorly, floorplate removed, ground on, and reinstalled poorly, breech face deeply scratched from a lifetime of forcing oversized shells into the gun, buttplate fitted with a hatchet, screws messed with, extractor polished, far from a $7000 gun. I hope the buyer got a problem free refund.

OK OK I will definitely eat crow on my “ wonderful original condition” statement. I took a 10 second look when it was $500 end. It was good enough to click watch. When I went back to check later, I saw the unfired statement in the title, and I was so blown away by that blatant error, I posted before I thought any further.
I guess I clearly knew the answer and didn’t need help figuring that out!!

I have been shooting a 20ga CSMC 21 for close to 20 years. It has been flawless and couldn’t be happier with it.

I have an RBL that did have issues firing the second barrel(single trigger), I sent it back to them, to quickly repaired and it has been flawless ever since.

I wouldn’t hesitate ordering a 21 from them exactly as you want one built. I may have them build me a Heavy Duck as my next toy.

Guns may be the worst investments since muscle cars. Buy them, shoot them and make your money elsewhere.

I paid $3750 for a 1967 442 25 years ago. Rust free California car that I restored while nursing a sore back. My total financial outlay has been under $10K, but, I can shoot paint, recover seats, overhaul an engine, front end, carb, alternator, etc. Driven it to weddings, funerals, short beer runs and miscellaneous for all these years, and, won’t loose a dime.




Wish my guns would do as well.

Best,
Ted

Quit buying Darnes...

Haven’t bought a Darne in a while. Have a few happy customers right here however. I got a thank you note and a gift from a guys wife with the last one I sold.

Actually, those guns have done just fine. But, not as good as the Olds has done, at the moment. $35-$55K seems to be par, on those.

You prepared for the bushel basket of money you will make on your Merkel?


Best,
Ted

Oh yeah, the Merkel is my entire retirement plan, right there.

Actually, it seems to be worth more than it was new, but it's not for sale. It actually shoots both barrels to the same point, unlike your old Darne.

Wouldn’t know. I never shot it, as it was cast a mile off. Cleaned it, sold it, but, not to you, remember?

Seem to think an actual English gunmaker offered you some advice, but, you knew better than him.

Just like always.

Best,
Ted

What english gunsmith advice was that?

For the sake of argument and as an example of a great "No Excuses" original Model 21,
see the link below.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=646573#Post646573

That would be Graham, an English gunmaker who posts as “gunman”, who gave you a huge clue, based on a life long career as an English gunmaker, that you discounted and ignored. Because, you, are you.

This post:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=586704&page=3

Not surprised at all you don’t remember.


Best,
Ted

I'm not sure what that has to do with that Darne that you used to own and that I bought on your advice. I thought you might be referring to JJ Perodeau, who told me that it is quite common for Darnes to be poorly or simply unregulated. Sadly, I did not speak to him until after I bought it. I did listen to you prior to buying it, however, since you had owned that particular gun. That proved to be a somewhat costly mistake.

Geez Ted, the Nutty Professor is obsessed with blaming you for the way a gun you never fired patterned.

So as I understand this sad tale, you briefly owned this Darne, but did nothing more than cleaned it and then sold it to someone else. And that person subsequently sold it to the Nutty Professor, apparently without disclosing if he ever shot it or knew of any patterning problems. And now we are cursed with hearing the Nutty Professor cry about it for all eternity, and blame you for the way it patterned. That's just pathetic on so many levels.

I read through the other Thread you provided the link to, and the Nutty Professor complained that:


So I would take this statement to mean that the patterns resulting from firing both barrels would be something like a figure 8... with the eight laying on its' side, or horizontally.

And it did that at any distance or with any load. So that would mean that the center of each barrels' pattern had to be diverging at pretty much the same rate as the patterns were opening up as distance increased. Since a correctly regulated double will have patterns that converge and cross at some point, wouldn't you think there would almost have to be a noticeably unusual spread or solder gap between the muzzles?

But here, we have the Nutty Professor claiming that JJ Perodeau says Darne's are quite commonly "poorly or simply unregulated". I know Darne's aren't the most popular shotgun in this country, but there are a lot of them. And we do have plenty of guys from other countries posting here. So it seems odd that only the Nutty Professor is crying that they are prone to poor regulation. And you are the logical scapegoat in his mind, even though he knows you never fired the gun, let alone actually patterned it. And he didn't buy it from you. That's just nuts.

You know, this all sounds eerily similar to the tale of woe the Nutty Professor told us when he blew up his Rock Island Arsenal built Springfield Model 1903 Rifle. He blamed the rifle, and the proven handload. He blamed the powder used. He blamed everything except his own carelessness. But when he sold the remains and metallurgical testing was done, the results showed that even though the heat treatment wasn't optimal, the blow-up was caused by a single high pressure event... which sounds like a careless reloading error.

Some people just aren't wired to ever admit to being wrong. This makes me think the Darne in question was probably just fine, but the Nutty Professor just couldn't shoot it well due to flinching or perhaps some dystonia problems induced by French guns. I also wonder who bought that Darne, and if the Nutty Professor disclosed the problem he keeps whining about. It would be interesting to hear from that buyer to get another version of how it actually patterns.

Then there was this from another Thread... Where are the Civility and Poor Manners Police when you need them?


How many rifles have you blown up Ted? If the answer is zero... then "Someday you might catch up"... to this Nutty Professor who is carrying a Darne grudge. And then, who will you blame???

How so?

It was an R10, in really decent condition. You didn't pay an arm or a leg for it, well below $2K would be my guess. I'd also guess it sold for a bit less than what you paid for it, but, not what most people would consider "costly".

Did you give it to somebody?

Best,
Ted

Blown up exactly zero guns in my life, Keith.

Same as the very. very, very, great majority who post here.

Best,
Ted

BrentD! BrentD! For cryin' out loud. Give these poor Trump supporters a break, will you?! Keith and some of the rest of them are having a hard enough time as it is! Remember about three weeks ago when I said that Trump was trying to convince the republicans to decline the money going to Ukraine so that more innocent women and children could be slaughtered by Putin? And to stop money going to Thailand? Didn't my prediction come true? Remember when Keith and Ted called me a liar and said it wouldn't happen? Now they had to watch their pro-gun republicans jump ship and vote with anti-gunner Biden to send money to these countries for aide. EVEN THE REPUBLICAN SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE backed Biden!! So for cryin' out loud. Keith and Ted are having a tough time seeing all of this. So leave them alone. Do what I've done- put them on your ignore list and ignore them. The only time I see what they say is when you quote them. If you want some entertainment, look around the courtroom for Trump's wife to back him up. She's not there!! It's hilarious that the only one rally that she has been to (he probably had to pay her to do it) he tried to hold her hand. Watch her body movement. She stuck her hand in her pocket so she wouldn't have to touch that guy. Ha-ha!! Hopefully BrentD, Trump will get elected again. We'll have four more years of comedy relief- Trump selling his Chinese shirts on tv. Trump boarding his plane with three feet of toilet paper sticking to his shoe. Trump saying he's pro-gun then turning around and banning the bump stock. And doing other hilarious things to entertain the country. You don't have to be a pro-gun democrat. You can be a pro- gun independent. Keith has to watch his republican Majorie Taylor Greene get booed by other republicans. The other republicans are against her and saying she is having a childish temper tantrum. That makes Ted's and keith's brains bounce around like a jelly jar full of June bugs seeing this. So, please- ignore these guys. Things are so much more pleasant when these guys are off by themselves. Okay? Take care, buddy.

Whatever. I’d still rather have Trump than the commie rats

You see how that works, BrentD? I can see on the opening page that ksauers made a post, but he's on my ignore list. That way, I can just go on and enjoy talking to other people about my double guns without seeing what he says. It works for me!!

You’re on my ignore list also. I knew your post was full of your typical commie crapola before I read it.

So, anyway, I just enjoy the tradition of the old Model 21s. I enjoyed traveling up to the Winchester plant in Connecticut. Having the conversations with Pauline Muerrle. Having her engrave my gun. And the whole Winchester history. I guess that is why I have always been such a Model 21 fan and enjoyed their heritage. And the people who worked there.