I have a question regarding using steel shot and shooting through an improved modified choke. Maybe this is a stupid question, but now I’m unsure.

I have a modern AyA 4/53 BL with steel shot proofing (Fleur de lis stamped on the barrel flats). I bought it specifically for use with steel shot if need be going into the future, but have never used it with steel shot to-date. When I bought the shotgun it was tagged as having modified x modified chokes. When I got the gun, I measured the chokes with a choke gauge, and found one barrel measures modified and one measures improved modified.

Tamid’s thread re: pressure variances, got me thinking about the potential riveling of a shotgun barrel. I think I have personally seen that once with my friend’s Ruger Red Label 20 gauge. I had noticed the barrel had little wavy bulges down through the barrel. I had questioned him about it and he told me that he once tried a couple steel shot shells through it. I told him my thought was that it may have happened from him shooting steel shot through too tight of a choke.

Anyway, I certainly don’t want to bugger up my expensive nice AyA. So my question, if the barrels are marked as steel shot proof, then is it still okay to shoot with an improved modified choke? I use to hunt ducks and geese back in the 1980’s before steel shot became mandatory, then stopped, so I have never used steel shot in any of my guns to-date.

I know with our old vintage shotguns, the rule is use nothing tighter than a modified choke with standard steel shot.
_____
TC

]

What is the largest steel shot you intend to use?
What gauge?? If 12 gauge #3 is the largest that I would shoot with it,

PLEASE send AyA an email and ask them.

aya@aya-fineguns.com

]

Hi Guys,

12 gauge, fixed chokes. When I use to hunt ducks and geese, the largest shot size I used were #4. I had a look through the little AyA Booklet that came with the shotgun, but nothing about the use of steel shot, only real general stuff, re: Safety, Assembly, Loading and operating, Disassembly, and Maintenance. They gave me a copy of the Official Proof Certificate marked for steel proof with the three stars of choke mark, both barrels.

_____
TC

Yep. skeettx is right. You might just want to send AYA an email and find out for sure. You'll probably get an answer within a day. Good luck!!

Thanks guys.
_____
TC

CIP “Standard Proof” is for lead OR STEEL (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300) ie. target/game loads, and without choke restriction (but I still wouldn't use full in a light weight game gun)
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=598636

This is from the Gamebore site

I would have to concur with Drew above. If you measure the constriction of a full choke on an unmodified barrel and then measure the choke on a full choke insert the constriction is the same, roughly. I don't think that little thin walled insert will stop bulging. Perhaps if using a smaller shot size but I have never done that. I have Browning Citori's that have been set to modified in 3" chambers and I use #2 and BB Steel and have for more than 20 years in one of them with no problems. But I did have a stevens 311A with full chokes. One day while shooting and that was just before steel was mandatory, I ran out of shells and I asked my hunting partner to pass me a couple of shells in the heat of the moment. He was shooting steel shells in 2 3/4, BB, which I didn't realize till after the fact. Both my barrels budged. I only mention this because the wall thickness on the 311 was around .035.

Tim, you said you measured the chokes with a choke gauge. Did you use a wedge shaped "pocket gauge" or a micrometer type gauge?

And if you did use a mike what were the actual constrictions, from bore diameter?

There are different ideas about what constriction constitutes a given choke designation, such as Improved Modified. I like the chart that is on Hallowell's site, which shows Improved Modified in a 12 bore to be .024" to .031". Is yours that tight?

Hi Stanton,

I only have the wedge shaped pocket type choke gauge, no micrometer. Thanks for the reference to the Hallowell choke chart, that is really good information showing the choke size ranges.

I emailed AyA asking about their choke size and steel shot proof. So will see if they respond.

______
TC

I found this vintage British shotgun for sale a while back. Made circa 1920/1925. From the proof marks, it shows that it was reproofed I believe in 2012. It has the CIP stamp and Standard stamp, So is this reproofed for use with standard steel shot then? The dealer selling the shotgun listed it as having Cylinder and Full chokes.



______
TC

Yes Tim - the STD under the crown.
Very unlikely however that the barrels are 4140, but possibly 1040; which has similar tensile strength and hardness (but less corrosion resistance) and I would personally be apprehensive about using steel target loads through a .040" choke in those barrels.
Please let us know the actual bore and muzzle constriction.

Hi Drew,

I never purchased the gun, just saved the dealer's photo as I thought it was interesting. Could you even get 2 1/2 inch steel shot cartridges back in 2012 or even today in North America?

______
TC

Tim, it's just a personal observation, so don't think I'm being insistent. But, find you a Skeet's bore micrometer (there are other brands, new and used). They're not prohibitively expensive, and will turn out to be one of the most useful "gun accessories" you would ever buy. I have the ability to measure bores and chokes on everything from .410 through 10 bore, and have never regretted the purchases.

Drew , the STD stands for Standard Nitro Proof rather than Standard Steel. As this chart from the current Eley Shooters Diary shows it is just the normal Nitro Proof level (for lead cartridges).

Superior Proof is again for lead cartridges but higher pressures.

The Steel shot mark is the CIP Fleur de Lys Steel shot mark.

In the UK standard steel shot cartridges are supposed to be usable (subject to maximum shot sizes and minimum choke sizes ) in guns Proofed for Standard Nitro.

Guns Proofed with the Fleur de Lys mark should be OK with steel loaded to CIP Pressures.

BUT I understand many American steel cartridges are loaded to higher pressures allowed by SAAMI but in excess of CIP limits.

Tim: I did some looking and couldn't find 2 1/2" steel loads offered today

Thank you Parabola
Are you saying that British Standard Proof is NOT for steel?

This is from the CIP site

12g 50mm, 60mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300)
(Numbers are transducer BAR converted to PSI)
Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; SAAMI is 11,500 psi
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi
Mean PROOF Pressure 930 BAR = 13,489 psi

BTW: CIP allows much higher pressures for 3" loads than does SAAMI. 12g 3" is 11,500 psi and 3 1/2" is 14,000 psi
12g 3” & 3 1/2” “High performance/Superior Proof”
Maximum Average (Service) Pressure 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
Maximum statistical individual pressure 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi
Magnum proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi

High Performance Steel regulations: the barrels should carry the High Performance Steel Fleur de Lys stamp and be marked “Steel Shot”

More
https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1094678/GTA_factsheet_shootingnonlead_ver102.pdf
"‘Standard steel’ cartridges have been designed by manufacturers in association with proof authorities that can be fired through any nitro-proved gun."
"Increased velocity can also be achieved by changing the propellant and generating more pressure. Such cartridges are known as ‘high performance’ steel. They should only be fired in guns proved for steel. This is indicated by a ‘fleur-de-lis’ mark on the gun and the words STEEL SHOT."

I recently finished up a Merkel 147E 12 bore. Owner shoots steel through it exclusively. Not the crazy fast stuff either, “mild steel load”. He was very surprised when I told him his gun was off the face and then proceeded to push feeler gauge after feeler gauge through the gap. Merkels are tough guns. They use great steel, have ample locking surfaces. Steel loads are just harsh. Your AyA will come off the face fairly quickly with the use of steel loads. They simply aren’t as strong as a Merkel, nor are they fitted up as precisely as a Merkel.

Is your AyA made up as a wild fowling piece or a game gun? Heavy action? Thick barrels?

The recoil on most steel loads (even mild ones) is pretty significant. Hopefully your stock will be able to also take the heavy repeated jolts a steel load provides. Keep an eye on that too.

I shot my BSS off face on the right barrel with years of steel loads, not hyper-velocity stuff, either.

I can't see how the composition of the payload can be any harsher on the jointing on a break action gun, Dustin. It must be just the combination of heavier (1 1/4 oz. and up) and higher velocities that does it? I can't imagine the fact that the shot is steel, as opposed to lead, playing a part in a gun coming off face. Am I missing something?

Recoil isn't shot type dependent. It's just payload and velocity. Higher pressures, would do it, however, and perhaps the steel load pressures are higher. That would not surprise me.

Personally, I just use bismuth now, but there was a time when I shot steel.

Steel shot loads are usually loaded to the max. High pressure. High velocity. That’s what does it. They have to be loaded that way to drive the payload at speeds sufficient for steel to be lethal. Any payload leaving a muzzle at 1350 to 1700 fps is gonna be straight up stout.
I never said specifically anything about the actual shot having anything to do with pressure or recoil. It doesn’t. When I mention “steel loads”, I’m basically saying high pressure, heavy payload, high velocity. All things that’ll loosen up a gun and stress a stock with a quickness.

Thanks for the insight LeFusil. Good information. The AyA 4/53 BL would be considered a light game gun. 12 gauge, it weighs 6 lbs. 12oz. with a standard action. I currently just shoot the same cartridges in it as my vintage British shotguns. 2 1/2 inch, Gamebore Pure Gold, 1 oz. 1200 fps. I'm careful with all my firearms and don't want to damage them. I don't plan on using steel shot for the foreseeable future. There is no lead bans here where I live, other than for hunting waterfowl.

From what I can see re: the British perspective, is no more than 1/2 choke with steel shot, even with the Fluer-de-lis proof stamp. That's my interpretation.

British Use of Steel Shot

______
TC

Drew,

It is a little bit chicken and egg.

British guns marked STD were generally made for lead, if they were made for steel they would be marked with the Fleur de Lys mark.

British cartridge manufacturers load “standard steel” cartridges intended to be safe in good condition Nitro (STD) Proofed guns of the right chamber length and subject to recommended limits on shot size and chokes.

Eley have introduced a 2 1/2” 12-bore Grand Prix Traditional Pro Eco with a biodegradable wad and 30g steel No.4 suitable for use in those guns.

I have been told that it is not a good idea to use steel cartridges shorter than the chamber length of the gun, for fear that the jump at the case mouth could allow steel pellets to emerge through the protective wad.

If Tim's AYA (company) says that he can shoot steel shot through his gun, then he shouldn't have to worry about shooting normal loads of steel shot though it. It should have been tested at the factory to do such. I have a 686 Beretta that I have always used to shoot trap for 20 years. Some places I shoot only allow you to use steel shot if you want to shoot there and you have to buy THEIR ammo to shoot at their range. I have shot several boxes of steel shot through that gun of normal trap loads over the years at that range with an IM choke with no problems. Browning says I can use steel shot in my Citori and I will use steel shot in it if I ever need to. --7 1/2 shot--1 1/8th oz. about 1235 FPS--10,400 PSI in a 12 gauge is what I refer to as a "normal" trap load with lead shot for me. The steel shot load that they sell us is pretty similar. Either breaks targets fairly well.......P.S. Pardon me, Tim for thinking that your gun had screw in chokes at the beginning of this thread. I didn't realize that your gun had fixed chokes. Good luck.

An AyA 4/53 is neither a Citori or a 686. The 4/53 is a light game gun.
All AyA is saying is that the BARRELS can handle steel loads, loaded to CIP standards. Our steel loads are not loaded to CIP, they’re loaded to SAAMI pressures. Euro proof makes no claims as to the effect of the loads on the action, stock, etc.
Take the “mild” 2 3/4” Remmy Sportsman high speed steel, it’s a 1200 bar load (17k psi) Thats not a normal trap load. They are stout, and It’ll loosen up a light game gun fairly quickly.
There are some Euro steel loads available here in the States. Bioammo produces CIP steel loads that several places sell here in the USA. I have no personal experience with any Euro produced steel loads. Mr. Cartmell may want to look into offerings like that. If it were my AyA, I’d probably stay away from SAAMI steel ammo.

My goodness
https://www.remington.com/shotshell/sportsman-hi-speed-steel/
Remington Sportsman High Speed Steel
1 1/8 oz. at 1550 fps and 1300 fps
1 oz 7s are 1365 fps
The website did not list psi

Winchester Xpert Steel 1 oz. 7s is listed at 1400 fps

Actual testing in 2011 of Remington 3" HyperSonic Steel 1 1/4 oz. was measured by Tom Armbrust at >1,800 fps with a chamber pressure of 13,850 psi!!
https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editori...gton_hypersonic_steel_shot_042811/280327

Drew,
The Remmy shells have “1200 bar” printed on the side of the hull.

My goodness again
That would be the CIP High Performance (Magnum) MSIP of 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi

I realize all this. All I'm saying is that my gun manufacturers say that I can shoot steel shot in my gun. So, I shoot steel shot through them. If his AYA says he can shoot steel through his gun, he should be able to shoot steel shot. I don't believe that AYA would say that he can shoot steel shot through his gun if it wasn't so. As long as he doesn't shoot some monstrous load. I would think that he could shoot any 20 gauge load that the average shooter would shoot trap, skeet or sporting clays with. Even though you normally wouldn't use steel for those events. Why would AYA build a gun to shoot steel shot and then turn around and tell you not to use it on an animal because the steel load to kill that animal is too big. In other words, why buy a gun to use for duck hunting and then not be able to use it for duck hunting because the load to kill a duck is too big to use steel shot with. I'd like to know what he intends to use the gun for. I'm anxious to hear what they say.

simple reality is that steel requires much high velocities to come close to lead shot performance - in both range and lethality. my experience with steel was brief and unsatisfactory; the first year it was required (1984?), i was invited on a texas coastal goose hunt and bought one box of steel 4's. used them in a brno zh o+u with chrome lined bores - took half the box to drop (not kill) the only bird taken that morning (3 shooters). i gave the rest away, and have never bought steel since....the cost of other non-tox is daunting - but, as a portion of the expenses involved in hunting....it's not a deal breaker for me. i think too much of my guns (humble as they may be), to inflict steel shot on them.

there are many here who disparage bpi (ballistic products inc) loading data as being hazardous to the health of guns and shooters - and i am in agreement with that sentiment. but, they are quite adamant that velocity is the key to steel shot performance....and they will sell the components and supply the loading data to folks who are willing to subject their guns to the level of abuse required for steel to "shine".

i ain't one of those folks...

best regards,
tom

And there you go. The OP said he bought the gun to "specifically shoot steel shot". My only question is: what are you going to do when everyone tells you not to use that gun with steel shot because it takes too much of a load to hunt with? Then the gun is useless? That's all I'm asking. Oh well.

Crazy right. I shoot that load through a 9 pound Remington 3200 for ducks. It can handle it, but there is no way that I would shoot that load through a light or medium weight modern or vintage fowling SxS type gun. Friends have used this same load in Browning BSS’s, SKB’s, etc and all of their guns are currently off the face, some have cracks in the stocks. This load is considered a fairly mild type loading for shooting game with Steel shot in regards to payload and velocity.

Free recoil:
7.5# gun with 1 1/8 oz. shot at 1200, (3 Dram Eq.) is 23.0 ft/lbs
7# gun with 1 oz. at 1365 fps is about 24 ft/lbs
8# gun with 1 1/4 oz. at 1220 fps (3 1/4 Dr. Eq.) is 25 ft/lbs
9# gun with 1 1/8 oz at 1550 fps is 28.5 ft/lbs
8# gun with 1 1/8 oz. shot at 1550 is 32 ft/lbs.

Not a steel shooter. I have guns I could shoot steel through, but, none of them are doubles.

A King Ferry Ithaca model 37 12, a 3” gun, that nobody would confuse with a Featherlight. The barrel, with its screw in chokes is a gas pipe.

A Hastings barreled Browning A5. Same deal, the barrel dwarfs the original, and passed French proof.

At the present, shooting lead and some bismuth or heavy metal loads through 16 and 20 gauge doubles, when I absolutely have to. An old Uggy 12, relieved of its former mod/full chokes, I could shoot steel through, but, mostly because I’m not terribly concerned about the condition it ends up being in. That is different than being able to actually shoot steel, but, is an option that is out there.

Look to England to see where old boxlocks are ending up. We don’t have to save all of them.

Best,
Ted

Good thinking.

My Edwinson Green BLE with Whitworth steel barrels (£38/3/0d. in 1895 when that was a lot of money for a box-lock) gets grudgingly fed Bismuth when shooting over wetlands, but lead otherwise.

If I have to shoot steel or nothing, it won’t be that gun I use.

Hi Guys,

I dug out the shotgun and had a look at the barrel flats. It is marked 1320 BAR Proof, along with the Fleur-de-Lis stamp. So does that constitute the use of High Performance Steel? I also went to Gamebore's website and found their 2 3/4 inch Game Load for steel shot.

12 Gauge, Dark Storm High Precision Steel loads, 1400/1490 fps.

They state re: this cartridge, "Shotgun proof and choke recommendations for each load:
5/32gms Standard Nitro Proof Modern Shotgun. Half choke maximum.
4/32gms Standard Nitro Proof Modern Shotgun. Half choke maximum.
3/32gms *High Performance Steel Proof Shotgun with Fleur de Lys stamp. CIP regulations state no choke restriction however we strongly advise Half Choke Maximum."

So from their statement, even though CIP okay, Gamebore is still advising to only use 1/2 choke Maxiumum for High Performance Steel Proof.

Gamebore Dark Storm Precision Steel

I think the level of recoil could be a real factor in a light game gun. Still early in the British steel game, maybe better loads/options coming down the road.

_______
TC

Yes,
1/2 choke is usually max constriction for steel loads….the exception being special barrels or chokes designed and built using materials for shooting steel through tight chokes.

And you’re right, the level of recoil generated by these loads is going to be a real factor when it comes the action and wood on your gun.

There is just something about a between the wars (The Football war and The Satan’s Choice-Popeyes war) Spanish double gun that makes a guy say “Meh-gimme a couple steel loads, and let’s get on with it”.

Best,
Ted

Now, there's an esoteric reference. I once dated a girl whose much older rakehell cousin had reportedly been in the Popeyes.

Yes, that is the CIP "High Performance" (Magnum & Steel) MSIP is 1200 BAR = 17,405 PSI for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 PSI, and Mean Proof Pressure of 1320 BAR = 19,145 PSI.

And I still wouldn't go there in a < 7# gun

That sounds like a lot of PSI, but didn't I read somewhere that it took over 50,000 psi before they could damage or blow up test barrels from a Remington 870 a few years ago?? Or did I read the article wrong?

Hey Jimmy,

It's all good. No worries. I'm not upset about any of this. It's a very good discussion about concerns I hadn't thought of before.

I haven't heard back from AyA, and if I do, they will likely just say that the shotgun was tested by the Eibar Proof House, it passed proof and so is good to go. In my mind they wouldn't be wrong if the CIP Regulation makes the statement "no choke restriction" for High Performance Steel Proof. But if the ammunition manufacturers are advising against it, then I think it's better to be safe than sorry over potentially damaging an expensive shotgun. It' a very nice gun, I like it and have been using it all along with lead shot since I bought it. I had just thought if the Government policy ever changed regarding lead shot where I live, then I could still have an option with using steel shot in a a modern shotgun. Again, no worries. It's all good.

_____
TC

Vintage guns and steel typically do not go together. As previous posters have noted the speeds required to get steel close to lead performance push guns to max pressure and possibly max recoil. It simply drives home the reality that vintage doubles should stick to Bismuth if non tox is required.

I keep an old Franchi Auto from my grandfather, with an extra barrel I purchased in order to shoot steel and not care about barrel damage. it works for dove, though I prefer my side by sides.

There it is. The simple and obvious solution for hunting scenarios.

Well, I 'll remember that. I thought his gun was a new, modern gun. I'm not that familiar with AYA. Sorry.

The article I read about psi was by a Tom Roster that he published in 2014. He said that SAAMI provides for the mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing barrels for 2 3/4" or 3"-- 12 gauge loads. He started by using loads that developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. He worked his way up- 5,000 psi at a time until he reached 50,000 psi with no damage to the barrels. At 55,000 psi the barrels blew up. He stated that most barrels blow up because of obstruction. Not by high pressure. So, as I said, maybe I misunderstood the article. I knew guys who used to shoot 1 1/4 trap loads that probably were pretty stout in their Model 12s for years. I guess I don't notice things that other shooters do. Like recoil and trigger pull. You guys talked about the heavy trigger pulls in the CZ Bobwhite shotguns. I stopped in at my local gun store last week and looked at several of their SXSs and when I dry fired them, I thought- that they felt OK to me. Ha-ha!! They were a little "crisp" but I figured that I'm probably heavy handed or something. Ha-ha!! Good luck and take care.

I came across this old TGS Outdoors video on Youtube. They were testing standard steel shot 2 3/4 inch, 28 gram, #5, shotgun cartridges in a vintage W. Richards of Liverpool, 2 1/2 inch chambered SxS, choked IC/IM. They fired a box of cartridges through the gun without any ill effects, other than recoil. However, the "newer" old Spanish Ugartechea shotgun discussed, did have some barrel damage from using 3 inch magnum steel, specifically, some slight rivelling, a bulge on the left barrel at the choke end, and a recoil disintegrated shotgun safety.

The testers did allude to recoil being an issue with lighter guns, as LeFusil and Drew had commented on previously in this thread. The older fellow stated that he once had an 8 lb. Webley & Scott made Greener Empire wildfowling gun. He said that he took it off face shooting just a half a box of 3 inch magnum Canadian Imperial Cartridges (SAAMI? lead loads) through it back in the 1970’s.

They did mention the American Remington shotgun pressure test at the end of the video.

So my take away, even though barrels may take the increased pressures, it doesn’t necessarily mean the action, stock and shooter can take the effects of the associated recoil. Anyway, I thought it was an interesting discussion.

English Guns and Steel Shot

_____
TC

I knew that you had to be really careful shooting steel shot in an older gun. I thought you had bought a new gun, recently. Sorry about that. I did learn a lot too. I tried to post the story about the 870 testing, but this website blocked me because it was in another magazine. It was really amazing how much pressure an 870 could take. I have one with one of the 34" trap barrels. And an extra slug barrel. The trap barrel is choked so tight, when I tried to shoot trap with it, I couldn't hit anything. There wasn't any chipped targets with it. It was either turning them to powder or missing them completely. I have really had a hard time with it the few times I tried it out. Take care.

Interesting topic but just shoot Bismuth, although even the Kent Bismuth is a little hot for a spanish SxS. Unless you live somewhere where the sky is blackened by flushing pheasants, it's in the noise, cost-wise. When my state mandated non-toxic in essentially all public areas, I bought a Benelli Ultralight to shoot steel, but when Kent started selling Bismuth I was able to once again use my Browning A-5 Sweet Sixteen and 16 gauge Ithaca Model 37. But I won't put Kent Bismuth through my Ugartecheas or my Garbi. You just have to reload or pay RST, when they have them. Currently Rogers Sporting Goods has #5 12 gauge Kent Bismuth at $34/box, free shipping over $99.00 which if your gun can handle it beats the RST non-tox at $65/box. Now I shoot those Kent 12's in the Ultralight, the improvement in performance over steel is worth it.

Hi Jimmy,

My AyA is a new shotgun. I bought it new in 2012. But I do have vintage British shotguns as well. I never heard anything back from AyA though. Thanks.

_____
TC

Well, if your gun is that new, how come I can shoot steel shot through my 686 Beretta that I bought in 2000, with an I/M barrel (choke tubes) or my Browning Citori which is probably that old, and everyone on here said I can shoot steel shot without damaging the barrels. But you can't? That's what I couldn't figure out. Oh well. Ha-ha!

The problem is that the Kent Bismuth in Canada is $91 per box. That's for the 2 3/4 inch, 1 1/16 ounce upland loads.

_____
TC

As far as I am concerned, the biggest problem is that it is just too hot. For some reason, I have 2 boxes of 1.25 oz Upland loads of #5s. I don't know how I'm going to get rid of them, but it won't be shooting them.

Oh well, be careful. I just figured that if a light steel load of shot is adequate enough to break clay targets without damaging my guns, I figured it would kill a bird. I guess I'll have to check the steel loads I shoot more. Thanks for the info guys. Good luck.

Thanks for the heads up guys. The last thing I want to do is spend a $1000 on a case of Bismuth cartridges that I find I can't use.

Kent Bismuth Upland Cartridges

______
TC

If you reload, I'd be happy to suggest recipes that you can check out. I'm shooting Boss Bismuth with fiber wads, this year, but normally I use home rolleds with Longshot powder and Rotometals Bi/Sn #5s for pheasants. They work really well.

I would never be able to find supplies around here like that to reload with. Since lack of bird hunting, most people around here only hunt released birds. Mainly rabbits or squirrels. For that reason, I am lucky just to find premade loads with #5 or #6 lead shot for birds because stores in my area don't provide them. If there is not water around, do you have to use that type of a load to hunt with? Or do you load that type of a load just for the enjoyment of it? If you do, that sounds like fun, but almost impossible for me. There are plenty of clay target reloading supplies, but no hunting- reloading supplies like bismuth or fiber wads. Thanks

I'll assume you are talking to me. If you can type messages on this forum, you can mail order your supplies. Even though there are reloading supplies sold at the local gun shop a mile away and at many other gunshops, I rarely buy from them. They can be hideously over priced.

Nontox loads (ie, Bismuth for me) are required for all waterfowl. That's a federal thing. They are only required for upland where special federal dollars were used to purchase the property (WPA, is one example), or where a local county (such as the one I live in) requires it for land they regulate, or on private property where the landowner requires it. Yesterday, I hunted 3 different properties for pheasants and need Bismuth on one of them. As a result, there is a lot of shuffling of loads in and out of my vest at each place we hunted. It is a small hassle.

Yes, I was asking you, BrentD. I couldn't repeat more than three quotes. Sorry.......... The places around here are state owned where they release birds. And other than released birds, there aren't many pheasants, grouse or other type of bird species in my state that I know of. Unless it is on private land........... When I go on vacation in Florida, there is a trap range about 3 miles from me. There is a large hill/backstop behind the area where you shoot. There is a lake on the other side of that hill and you can't shoot over that hill or you will be banned from going there. They have been sued at least a dozen times (bogus lawsuits that they have never lost). When I first went there, they showed me a movie of why I couldn't shoot over that hill and they took my drivers license info- that way if they ban you from going there, they look up your name and you can never shoot there again. When you get a squad to shoot trap, the puller walks up and down behind you and you can't shoot until he tells you to. That way he can watch to see if your shot goes over that hill. You have to buy their steel shot that they sell at that club. No lead and no reloads. I have since found a better place to shoot where they insist on using lead shot and I can use my own reloads. It is a little farther away, about 30 miles, but a lot better club. It is really a hassle to hunt and shoot sometimes.

Jimmy, you would find Fly Over Country much more friendly and accomodating. We have birds, friendly trap ranges, and a little more space though occasionally someone lands a bullet on someone else's house.

Jimmy,
I'm surprised that you haven't considered your neighboring states of Wisconsin and Michigan as possible hunting trips. Things get real "birdy" around here!
Karl

Interesting

I'm getting too old and tired to hunt anymore. Let alone travel. It's enough- just to drive out to the club, park 50 feet from the pad, carry a gun and a couple boxes of shells, shoot a couple rounds of trap- then go home. 🤕 I think my hunting days are about over.

Jimmy,
Clearly understood, as I'm 76 and just keep pushing.
Karl

Jimmy, there is a way to put as many quotes as you want in a post. I often do it this way as opposed to clicking on the "Quote" box at the bottom right of the person's post. Especially if I want to extract one line or two from a lengthy post to quote, as I just did from your post above. What you do is to precede the beginning of the line you want to quote with what you see in the pic I'm including. I couldn't type it out for you in text because the computer automatically puts it in a "quote box" if I do. So, I took a pic of the screen showing you how to type it out.

You must be very careful to quote the person exactly or you may be accused of intentionally mis-representing what the person posted. I highlight the quote, then copy it, then paste it in my reply, to prevent errors in quoting. Hope the screen shot explains what I mean.



Why ever do it this way when all you have to do is click on the "QUOTE" box? Because, it's much quicker than clicking on it, then deleting all the extraneous parts of a lengthy post that aren't related to your reply. Way, way quicker. In my Quick Reply box you can see how it works when done properly. In the Preview box just below it you can see how it will post a "quote" that isn't really a quote, if you aren't careful.

Okay. Thanks for the advice.