I may have an opportunity to get a Kleine Munsterlander pup from someone I know in Switzerland next year. She is a hunter and her whole familiy are hunters and they run KM's.I met her [censored - come on man!]. very nice dog, perfect size, super friendly and according to my friend, a hell of a retriever.

A pup must e 12 weeks old to travel out of Switzerland. no other s restrictions to US.
my concerns are the traveling part. it seems like airlines wont let me buy a seat for a crate to sit next to me.

so, my worry is the trauma of being in a cargo hold for 8+ hours. Swissair has a special section, air conditioned, temperature controlled for dogs in crates. But I would rather have her in cabin in a crate.
what are your experiences and suggestions/advice?

Why not use Space A and go get her.

I'm pretty sure you can use one of the very small crates as a carry on and put it under the seat to your front. Assuming the pup will fit of course. My wife worked for a few different airlines mover 20+ years and has told me that people do it all the time.

I'm further informed that this is known as "Pet in cabin" and there is a fee associated with it. Also, there can be import regs concerning things like health certificates and quarantining that need to be resolved ahead of time.

I have imported 2 Bernese Mt Dogs. One from Belgium. One from Slovakia.

One came in to JFK. One Newark. Both were 9-10 weeks old

Newark was easier. All shots, Pawsport etc

Both were not in Summer. There are restrictions. Fall and Winter.

Direct flight. Gryffon is next to me as I type.

Brian:

A friend of mine brought an Irish Water Spaniel pup back from England in 2006. That pup was 8 or 9 weeks old, and he was allowed to keep him in a crate at his feet.

Now that was 2006, and he flew non-stop from London Heathrow to Dulles. I'm not a fan of shipping pups. I much prefer traveling to the breeder and picking the pup up and bringing home. But this one is in Switzerland. You mentioned traveling to get the pup, I would. Contact the various airlines that have routes to and from and ask what their policies are about keeping the pup with you. That is a long trip in a cargo hold. Good luck.

Why put yourself and a pup through all that stress and aggravation?

A lot can happen on a flight that can traumatize a little puppy.

You can find better dogs from that breed in North America.


OWD

I know I can use a crate that fits under the seat. if the pup is small at 12 weeks that would work.

as far as stress and aggravation. dealing with Swissair has always been easy. they appear to have a very dog friendly policy.
no quarantine for dogs coming from Switzerland to US.

I dont see how you would get a better dog here than SWitzerland or Germany. Germany is the origin and they have pretty strict breeding requirements. Switzerland is even more thorogugh. as I saym, the Swiss make the Germans look like Italians!!!!


Yes things can happen. Thats what I have to determine the risk/reward.

When's the last time they had any real/substantial wild bird hunting in that part of Europe?

Not released birds or driven birds, but real wild birds hunted with pointing dogs. Sure, they shoot some woodcock here and there, but there's not much of it. Same with partridge.

Have they ever had wild bird hunting in Switzerland?

So who cares about breeding requirements when there's no wild game to run the dogs on or to refine their hunting abilities and bloodlines?

You can set up tests and play hunting games. But only wild birds make birds dogs.

And why would a breeder in Germany or Switzerland sell you their best dogs? You can't help them build their reputation in their region. Better to sell you the less promising pups in a litter. Great way to get rid of them and make some money.

Also, a lot can happen to a puppy on a flight that long. Leaving its mother/kennel will be the most stressful thing that has ever happened to that puppy. Now it's going to an airport, being handled by different people, being exposed to different sounds and smells, and this is going on for a while.


OWD

I have no knowledge of the breed of dog that Brian wants to bring from Europe, but I do have a bit of experience with importing Greyhounds from Ireland. These are retired racing dogs or ones that never developed into racers. Their ages range from 2 to about 5 yo. Brian doesn't mention the age of the dog he has in mind.

These Irish greyhounds are flown in batches of four to six from London to Raleigh on a non-stop American Airlines flight lasting about 8 1/2 hours. They are shipped in large individual crates clearly marked "LIVE ANIMALS". Add at least an hour or so for crating and loading/unloading on each end of the flight So the dogs are in crates for 10+ hours PLUS the time it tales to ship them from Dublin to London. The AA flight to Raleigh typically flies at an altitude of about 40,000 feet where the outside air temp is about -70 F. The atmosphere in the portion of the cargo area where the dogs are carried is surely controlled.

In spite of the travel process, the dogs are surprisingly well adjusted when they arrive here. Tails wag, they enjoy a bit of human attention, and seem no worse for the wear. I usually help out by taking one somewhere near the cargo area so the dog can relieve itself, drink some water, and walk around to stretch its legs. Then it's off to the person who will foster it prior to adoption.

The bottom line to all this is that shipping a dog by air for a log distance isn't as bad as we might think.

OWD and Brian bring up valid points. Brian, have you looked into the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVHDA)? They recognize both the small (Kleine) and large Munsterlander. A breeder search through them should put you on a pathway to finding a breeder that actually hunts wild birds.

I agree with OWD regarding wild birds. Hunt Tests are fun, and a great way to keep a dog in shape. They are also a great way to evaluate desire and prey drive, and to meet like-minded folks. But, dead ducks thrown from a launcher don't dive, or swim off into cover. They don't run into the thickest cover in a field. All too often, breeders slap a JH title on their dogs and advertise them as "field or hunting stock."

The true test is wild birds. I agree with Brian on strict breeding standards. Most breed organizations here in the USA would never stand for a breed warden. That is why research of both breeder and pedigree, to include dogs other than just the sire and dam is important.

I speak only from personal experience, albeit bringing a dog (not pup) from west to east (WYO -UK).

I spent many hours researching the how to do for accompanying a dog on the same flight. The whole rigmarole made it virtually impossible - remember the rules are to a large part designed by animal shipping agencies. Was I glad that I opted to use shippers - definite Yes --- although it would have been a substantial money saver to fly out and accompany dog on same flight.(Much easier from East coast airports to main EU airports such as Schippol, Holland on DIRECT flight.)

Although you might book this arrangement - it may not happen that way !... eg you book your ticket with Airline A but they share some flights on that route with Airline B and you may end up on different flight to your cargo/dog. Double check to exclude that possibility might arise.

The primary obstacles to me were the import rules post Brexit. Would have been far simpler for a USA to EU shipping. From memory I think that American Airlines had the more straightforward procedures and access to information for private individual shipping requests.

I have flown long haul (UK - AUS) as handler in attendance with dogs as cargo and the flight itself is not an issue for the dog. I would not anticipate problems of stress on pup for your relatively short haul trip - assuming no unexpected/undue delays. You have to RELY (?) on baggage handlers to be sympathetic and professional in the load and unload procedures and to ensure a speedy process.

My 2c ?
1.The older the pup the better for travelling.
2.I would be apprehensive of long distance shipping for a nervous type of pup.
3. Arrange travel outwith the season of high ambient temperatures in case dog has to spend a length of time on the tarmac during loading. This is important.
4. O-W-D makes the very pertinent point about buying "blind" - may work out well for you but it might also turn out as "pig-in-a-poke". In the latter case - just think of the next 12 years.!!

Good Luck.

But Dave, those are older, adult dogs that have been through several years of living. They've seen stuff, they've heard stuff, they've grown up.

Puppies are totally different. It's going to be a scary experience. 10 hours in a crate is a LONG time. And that's if everything goes as planned.

Also, if a breeder's dogs are any good, they should have a wait list of people in the general area who want to buy their pups and no reason to sell overseas.

OWD

OWD, I agree these are older dogs (maybe). The OP never gave the age of the pup. I was just relating my experience (though limited) that air shipping is not the kiss of death for a dog.

These dogs are used primarily for waterfowl. they do quite a bit of duck hunting. lots of lakes and rivers. not pen raised birds.
as far as questioning the logic of bringing a dog from Switzerland or Europe. I could apply the same logic to almost everyone here's infatuations and near religious commitment with English shotguns or other high end European brands.
Example: why go through all that trouble of auction houses, importation permits, taxes, fees etc brining a used English double to the US when you can get a New Fox from CSM custom built to your specifications. And no hassles with Customs etc.
Now lets here the reasons to justify that!!!
we want what we want.

Gee, that is an easy one. Far more quality for your dollar if you are an educated shopper buying used English VS a new CSM Fox.

I do not disagree with finding the best bird dog you can anywhere on the planet, that is logic which I can relate to

Well, because you don’t have to deal with CSMC with an old British gun, and it will likely work as intended.

That said, I get the dog thing. But, the bummer I have discovered is dogs are a crapshoot. There are issues with temperament, health, biddability, that are not and can never be controlled by the breeder or owner. My dog was sick for a year, the most important first year, with an autoimmune disorder that impacted her bird dog training and skill set. A friend lost a hell of German Shorthair to some form of brain fungus at 4 years of age. A big dollar British lab puppy turned out to have no field skills and is a sudden rage dog, to boot. The breeder offered to euthanize the pooch, but, wouldn’t refund the cost at the 5 year mark. The problems took that long to materialize.

Stuff happens.

You are likely amplifying those and other issues by attempting to import a pup. The biggest problems likely won’t be issues with the breeder, or, dog, but with the incompetence of people along the way that have to take charge of your pup.

Good luck. I wouldn’t do it.

Best,
Ted

Sometimes a dog is just a dog.
Do what you feel comfortable with.

I like the temperament and smaller scale of British labs. Out in the countryside they are pretty inexpensive.
It’s no more, nor less of a crap shoot picking one up over there.
Just thousands less expensive.

So a pet rock it is

"I could apply the same logic to almost everyone here's infatuations and near religious commitment with English shotguns or other high end European brands."

No, you can't. A puppy is a living creature that feels pain and fear. They experience loneliness and anxiety. Negative experiences can impact their lives in all sorts of ways.


OWD

People bring animals in, or ship them out everyday.
It’s a 5 hr flight.

There isn’t some grand pool of continental breeds that were scarred for life from their ride over.

I’ll probably bring a pup back when I return in September.

As a general rule Dogs are rather stoic..adaptable...and tolerate their situation (albeit less than desirable in human eyes). My experience showed them to just "switch off" during flight and they mostly ignored any other activity on the cargo deck. While there is no guarantee that people do not try to fuss them or try to stimulate play or activity during transportation these same events can happen when out walking your mutt and a stranger wants to call your dog and fuss over it ....Aaaaargh !! BACK OFF !!
If the dog shows temperamental and/or behavioural issues after the transportation period then the likelihood is that the pooch had them before shipping.

Too much money and emotion are tied up in pets, bird dogs.
My oldest had a fine German Wirehair, about 5 years old--he took him to the vet with a mobility problem and didn't bring him home.
Another son had a fine Pointer pup around 9 months old, a grass awn entered her nose and ended up in her lungs--you guessed it dead with an infection. A buddy had a fine Setter pup running in the woods until a branch speared her in the chest! These accidents are tragic but the financial loss and emotional trauma adds up to be a big deal. Working dogs have always been tools for sport, their useful lives are finite and fairly fragile. Invest emotion in your family not your animals, this isn't a Disney movie!

One of the lessons life teaches you is that change is constant and loss never really ends. I hate losing my bird dogs, I am extremely attached to them but also understand the cycle of life just as any hunter does. I am not willing to forego that bond and connection to my dogs in order to avoid the pain of loss. The financial part? As the old saying goes, I spent all my money on fine guns, bird dogs and hunting trips, the rest I just wasted.

Well, Brian, I just read through the whole thread again and I think you’ve gotten a pretty good overview of the process and the risks involved in this endeavor. I’ve only brought a dog from overseas once. The whole process was involved but went well and the dog did fine. However, within a year she developed cancer and was soon gone. If I’d known that was going to happen, would I have done it? No. But I didn’t know that and couldn’t know that. We do our due diligence on all the things that we can know and we accept up front all the things that we can’t. In the end if the dog checks all the boxes and you really want the it, go for it. He/she might turn out to be the dog of a lifetime. Or not.

All the best to you and come back and let us know what you decide.

OK, we've got AZXMike and eightbore as "not dog people." To each their own. Your shotgun won't keep you warm at night.

Bruce

He didn't say he wasn't a dog person

"Working dogs have always been PARTNERS for sport..."

Fixed it for you. Pretty sure this is what you meant ;-)

There are "dog people" and "it's just a dog people". The two categories don't understand the other. Meet "Snap" aka Uma De La Source d'Hannahatchee. My 75th birthday present. Picked her up on June 24th at Hannahatchee Kennel in Lumpkin, Ga. She upgrades the MuttPak 2.0 dogware of Abby and Willa, 12.5 and 9 years old, to version 3.0. A French Brittany joins my two American Brittanys. Will Rogers nailed it. Gil

Well done Gil!
May the two of you have many wonderful seasons together.

Well put me in the dog column. If you want the dog just do it. Life is too short to hunt with a bad partner, be they two legs or four, or have an ugly girlfriend. Unless she has 400 acres nobody hunts and you can tell everyone she is a great cook and has a good sense of humor. . I have retired several working dogs for one reason or another and cried when I had to put more than one down.

I read an observation recently on another forum, it may have been a repeat by an author, but it went something like this: "If I got to the hunting grounds and realize I forgot my dog, I go back and get him. If arrive at the hunting grounds, but with my dog and I forgot my gun, we hunt." Gil

I agree with that. I always tell the wife I have to go hunting otherwise the dogs will be disappointed. On my second (10 y.o.) and third (2.5 y.o.) Pudelpointers. I never get tired of watching them work

Bruce

Steve,

I meant that analogy as a contrast in the extremes shooters are willing to go to get what they want, whether one is better than the other. its about the fact that they want it. not trying to make an apples to apples comparison.