I am in the process of buying a Model 21 skeet in 12 gauge. Interestingly, both barrels are marked SK1. All the M21 skeet guns that I have seen have have been choked SK1 and SK2.
So, how common is it to have both barrels marked SK1? From a skeet shooting perspective, it is advantageous to have both barrels SK1 as it provides a more open choke. For upland bird hunting, and sporting clays shooting, the SK2 provides a tighter pattern which helps with a more distant target.
I look forward to your replies.
Bill

I agree with your assessment of WS1 and WS2. WS1 in both barrels is not common and the fragile muzzles would not be my choice.

I've had a M21 26" 12 gauge with WS1 and WS2 chokes for many years and, fortunately, have not had an incident affecting the WS1 choke. I'll continue to be extra cautious to protect the muzzles.
My new to me M21 has 28" vent rib barrels which I much prefer to my 26" solid rib skeet gun. I've looked for years to get a 28" vent rib skeet gun; and it has 32" vent rib full and full barrels as well---lucky me. Such guns are not uncommon in the US but here in Canada they are really hard to find.

No offense, but I don't understand this conversation. You should be able to shoot and break any target with both barrels of WS1 on a Model 21. At skeet, sporting clays or live pheasant. If you're good enough. I've run 25 straight at skeet with a Remington 20 gauge pump gun with cylinder barrels, a Model 21 with both barrels I/C, a 12 gauge Citori with cyl/cyl, I've even run 26 straight with my 686 Silver Pigeon O/U trap gun by sliding the gun up in my arm and lining up the beads like Tom Knapp always did. Probably the best shooter we had at our club used to shoot skeet with 1/2 oz. load filing up the rest of his 20 oz. shells with popcorn to take up the space in the hull and a Cutts compensator on his Model 12. And not to mention I've taken pheasant with a full choked, 20 gauge Ithaca pump shotgun. And did pretty well with my Citori and cyl/cyl chokes. So, why couldn't you shoot or hunt with a Model 21 with WS1/WS1 chokes? And why would WS1 chokes be fragile? Like I said, no offense, but could you gentlemen explain this? Are you using steel shot?

Yes, I'm talking about lead shot---I hope my M21's never see steel shot.
The purpose of my thread is whether the WS1/WS1 choke combination is uncommon compared to the supposedly more common SK1/SK2 chokes. From there we have digressed a bit about the merits and demerits of the SK1 vs WS2 chokes. The WS1 choke is jug choked (recessed) which results in less wall thickness at the muzzle and, therefore, vulnerable to damage.
In my younger days I shot NSSA skeet for many years and still enjoy the occasional recreational round. For 12 gauge, a more open choke (like WS1) will break more targets than a tighter choke (WS2). You certainly don't need a 12 gauge in skeet to shoot impressive scores --- a good competition shooter can make a 1/2 oz load in a 410 look easy.
The SK1/SK2 chokes were developed by Winchester back in the 30's, long before plastic wads came on the market which boosted shotshell performance and skeet scores.
I trust my long discussion is helpful.

I'm glad you explained that, but has lead shot ever damaged WS1 barrels? I might be wrong, but I've never heard of it. Winchester proof tested their barrels to several times normal loads and there have been many WS1 guns made over the years and a lot of rounds of skeet have been shot through them. But then again, I might be wrong. I never heard of people feeling that way about WS1 chokes. Maybe, I won't be so excited about buying skeet guns from now on. So, thanks again and good luck.

I sure don't see that the muzzles of my WS-1 bored Model 21s are particularly thinner than any other open bored guns. Certainly not thinner than skeet bored Browning Superposed Lightnings.

Winchester steel barrels were always considered to be the strongest barrels made from what I have ever read. I have never heard of anyone ever calling them "fragile". Are the Model 12- WS 1 barrels made the same way? Just wondering.........

WS-1 is not jug choked - it is pretty much the exact opposite. Jug choking involves "enlarging the bore for a short length just behind the muzzle. The shot column expands into this area and is then constricted again at the muzzle." (PGCA) WS-1 involves constriction back from the muzzle followed by an enlarged diameter to muzzle. That terminal flare is of even greater diameter than the bore, hence the wall thickness concern. Whether the loss of wall thickness at muzzle is a concern at all depends on the individual. I'm not especially lucky, but have never damaged a WS-1 muzzle.

Most WS-1 12 ga chokes I've measured had 8-9 thou constriction. That, and decent 1.125 oz Pb, is good enough for most field situations. For NSCA I'd much rather have WS-2......well, more than that. But many small clubs set courses for which IC would be adequate.

Why did Winchester see fit to burden the Model 21 Skeet Guns with that way too tight for skeet WS-2 choke? Winchester shooters with their Model 12 Skeet Guns shot all their targets with WS-1. Remington's SKEET choke was essentially the same as Winchester's WS-1, and Remington Model 31, Sportsman and Model 32 Skeet Guns all had that choke.

And skeet was low gun, plastic wads were not created yet, and shot was a good bit softer, roll crimps and over shot wads were the norm.

In the Navy I shot quite a bit of International Skeet with plain old issue Remington Model 1100 Skeet Guns. Low gun, delayed pull, faster birds, didn't need any more choke than Remington SKEET.

Fortunately the Win 21’s were blessed with an infallible single selective trigger.
Flick the switch.
Shoot out goers with the WS2 barrel and incomers with the WS1.

As you look down at your barrels, true Skeet In / Skeet Out
Problem solved.

Researcher
Thank you
REALLY brings back memories long past

Sounds like fun. The only thing I remember doing in the Navy was painting.....more painting ... and the only time I got to shoot anything was when they let us shoot those old worn out .45s off of the stern at water swells and I couldn't hit anything with those old pieces of worn out junk.

Researcher, maybe some Model 32 Remingtons had only SKEET chokes, but my rather late, 1938, Model 32 has barrels marked SKEET IN and SKEET OUT just like Parker skeet guns of the same period.

The first year, 1934, Remington catalogued the Model 32 Skeet Gun it was listed as "Both barrels Improved Cylinder." I examined such a gun at D.J.'s Sport & Pawn a few years ago with a serial number in the 14xx range. As hard as I tried, it just didn't fit me. Every time I threw it to my shoulder, I was looking at the side of the barrels not down the rib. By the 1935 catalog it was "Both barrels Remington Special Skeet Boring." which it remained through the 1942 catalog.

The first time I went to the skeet range at North Island Naval Air Station a Chief that was shooting saw my officer uniform and snatched me up to be the officer on the ComNavAirPac Skeet & Trap Team. That lead to meeting Al Buntrock, retired Chief, and champion skeet shooter, and so this twig was bent. Only thing I ever did with the Model 1100 Trap Gun I was issued was use the trap barrel on the skeet gun to shoot ducks on the marsh at Camp Pendleton.

I'm sure steel shot can be shot out of a M21 without adverse effects provided you don't have chokes tighter than modified. But, I have no plans to find out with my nearly 90 year old M21.

You need to have a bore gauge to understand the WS1 choking. Externally, the barrels are the same for both WS1 and WS2.
The WS1 choking does make the barrel walls thinner for a short distance---its a matter of personal opinion whether this is significant or not.

I just checked a major web site offering guns for sale and had a quick look at every M21 skeet gun---only one M21 had WS1/WS1 choking. So I have answered by own question---this choke combination is uncommon---why shooters chose WS1/WS2 vs WS1/WS1 is open for debate.

Maybe for doubles trap, since you are shooting from approximately the same distance on each shot? Or maybe for skeet for the same reason. I use my Model 21 for skeet that has been opened to Imp/Cyl and Imp/Cyl. It has always worked fairly well. I guess you'd have to ask someone who ordered a gun in that configuration.

On page 4 of Guns International right now Steve Barnett has a SKEET 20 gauge for sale, with the Cody papers markedSK1/SK1.

I did a quick web search for Winchester Model 12 skeet guns and, of the ones that I found, all had WS1 chokes---I'm sure there must be some M12's with WS2 chokes but I didn't find any.
Interesting that M21 skeet shooters favoured WS1/WS2 chokes but M12 skeet shooters preferred SK1 chokes.

Thanks, Jimmy.

I just checked Dave Riffle's Model 12 book and there is lots of references to M12 skeet guns but no mention of whether it might be WS! or WS2 chokes. Looks like most were WS1 and perhaps WS2 was by special order.

My buddy came into my club about ten years ago. He said that he had just seen the neatest gun up at some little gun store not far from me. It was a 16 gauge Winchester Model 12. And it had the butt pad crushed from sitting in a closet for so long. I asked him if he bought it and he said no. I went up the next day to look at it. It was the sweetest little gun. Beautiful wood. And sure enough, the pad was crushed right down to the wood. So, I bought it. $375.00 I took it home and put a nice leather covered KICKEEZ pad on it. It doesn't have a Cutts on it- it has a Weaver compensator on it. ( I have never seen one before or since) The guy gave me all the chokes in this neat little antique sewing thread box. I put in a cylinder choke and it shot skeet like a dream. And it is stamped- WS-1. Did I mention that the wood is just gorgeous? No..... I never told my buddy that I bought it. I know. I know. Where's the pictures?

Jimmy:

I have an extremely worn 16 gauge Model 12 with the Weaver choke system and a full set of the choke tubes in two apparently homemade leather cases. The system works fine, but I think it ugly enough to make a Cutts look good by comparison.

Rem

That is WS-1 and WS-1. As per usual they don't show us a picture of the bottom of the barrels to see the choke markings.

My 16 gauge Model 12
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My M 21 mfd 1932 (Tournament Skeet 20) has Sk-1/Sk-2. I sure wish both barrels were Sk-1. I don't switch the selector back and forth to shoot the outgoing bird with the Sk-2 barrel--just because I figure that is one more thing that could get out of wack.

I never really liked any kind of a compensator. They look ugly and ruin the value of the gun. To me, anyway. Mine is fairly nice, except around the end of the barrel where some tyro nicked it up trying to get the barrel on and off. I took pictures of it this morning but that one website is down. I'll try again. Thanks and good luck.

That is just like mine. Except mine has the bluing all worn off from someone taking the barrel on and off and chipping it up. Thanks for the picture.

Looks good, thanks for posting.
At one time I had a M12 skeet gun with a Cutts---it sure could bust skeet targets---really didn't like the big bulge at the end of the barrel and it barked loudly but it sure could produce a wicked pattern for those skeet targets.
If I remember correctly, Wayne Mayes shot Win M1200 with a Cutts back in the 70's. He was almost unbeatable.