I have a 20ga Parker GH damascus gun that I would to bird hunt with, it is choked mod and full. I am thinking of opening it up to sk1 & sk2. My question is would changing the choking hurt the resale value, should I decide to part with it?
+1.
Have you patterned the 2 1/2" spreader loads that Polywad makes for just this purpose? They aren't cheap, but you might have your cake and eat it too.
Larry, if it is a collector grade gun, meaning in very high original condition, then I agree with Mike Harrell. However, if it is well worn but solid then I'm going to say opening the chokes won't really lower the guns value. Especially if the choke work is done by a top gunsmith. I've asked the same question of several major dealers and this is basically the same answer they've given me.
I have three Parker hammerguns that I opened the chokes on. Did you buy it to resell, or to shoot and enjoy it ? Like Joe said, unless it's a collector gun- open em up. Paul
I agree with Bladesmith and others. If it is a high condition gun, probably best to leave it alone. If it's simply a solid, honest gun for shooting, open it up. After all, it's YOUR gun. -- Ed
All Parkers worth shooting are collector guns, sooner or later.
Personally, I would keep the chokes as they are - resale aside. Spreader loads will give you the pattern to take woodcock from under your feet, but when the leaves are off or you are on the windswept prairie, you still have something to work with.
If it were a high condition gun, I wouldn't modify it because I would prefer it in original condition. If it were a high condition gun and on the market with properly openned chokes to something reasonable like Mod/IC, any retail seller on the net would be asking full pop market for the gun,IMO. There'd be no deduction for the chokes being altered...AND, people would jump on a high condition 20g damascus GH gun pretty quick, IMO. I believe this because I think there are very few high condition damascus Parker GH 20g guns out there. So, any high condition 20g damascus Parker would be a real find regardless of choke alteration.
Larry, I wouldn't open the chokes. I have two 16 gauge Parker Hammer guns, that are both choked about full. I use spreader loads and shoot low gun skeet in the 20's. If you choose to sell the little 20 gauge, I would be interested in talking with you.
asphaltdave@comcast.net
The same argument about opening chokes "because you bought it to use" can be used when discussing cutting the stock for your eight year old or cutting the barrels because "I missed a grouse because I hit the muzzle on a tree." Do what you want, but by 1985, your gun's value may suffer from its modifications. Oh, my gosh, it's 2007 already and we have learned a little about Damascus guns and screwing with them. A fellow down the street from me sleeved or rebarrelled probably 500 medium to high condition Damascus Parkers through the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Another guy up the street the other way probably bought and sold another 500 medium to high condition Damascus Parkers and didn't sleeve them. Some of the readers here know who those two guys are and can back up my illustration. Those who refuse to learn from their past experience (and the experience of others) are destined to repeat it, good or bad.
Looks like another old irreplacable is going to the butcher shop. Why not backbore it, port it, and open the chambers to 3" so it'll take those 1-1/4 oz moron loads? Some guys shouldn't have possession of these old guns. Chopper
Great diplomatic post, Chopperlump. I was grinding mine out while you were doing the same with yours. Why is it that everyone who owns a pigeon gun wants it to be a quail gun and everyone who owns a grouse gun want to shoot geese with it? Most of these guys have about thirty of each.
Several questions have not been asked or answered. Do you use it now or does it sit in the safe because the chokes are too tight? Would you use it a lot more if the chokes suited your needs? Do you plan to sell it anytime soon? Have you given it enough use to really determine how well it performs, as is? Do you want to buy or spend time making up spreader loads? Give all these questions your honest answers and make your decision. I'm on the side with Paul, Joe and Ed. I might only suggest not going as extreme as SK1 and 2 to start with. IC/Mod would be my first stop.
And I will only saw mine off two inches rather than the four inches I was contemplating. Just kidding, Jim. Frankly, my dear, xxxxxxxx.
Who cares if you will use it more if you modify it or plan to sell it any time soon? That has nothing to do with whether or not it is a good idea to open the chokes.
How many people sit around years later peering at their (insert your item of pride and joy) and say, 'Well, If I'da known it woulda been worth so much someday I'da never (insert your choice of stupid modification)?
The gun is far more important than some miscellaneous owner's miscellaneous need to place fewer pellets in a circle at 40 yards, or to not have to bend his neck 1 more centimeter, or to have a slightly softer surface to place against his shoulder when shooting.
I am sure there are those who would buy the Mona Lisa, were she for sale, and finally fix that glaring omission of a mustache.
Personally, I wonder why you need to open the chokes.
So you miss a few birds - is that a big deal?
To me, it's not. I would rather keep the gun original and hunt those birds up again on another day.
If you're blowing birds apart, let them get out there a bit before you pull the trigger.
OWD
It has everything to do with the decision, IMO. It's his gun. Who else has the right or authority to decide if it "is a good idea"? You? The gun is not more important than the owner's wishes. The owners enjoyment is more important than what some self-appointed purist's idea of what he should be allowed to do with his own property. It's just an object, to be used and enjoyed by the person who owns it. The world will not be altered one way or the other by what he does to his shotgun. Opening chokes to suit your needs/wants is not a "stupid modification". "Stupid modifications" are things like 12" forcing cones and backboring, thinking either will reduce recoil.
I thought the Mona Lisa HAD a mustache! Her mother did. JMO, of course.
Who cares if you will use it more if you modify it or plan to sell it any time soon? That has nothing to do with whether or not it is a good idea to open the chokes.
How many people sit around years later peering at their (insert your item of pride and joy) and say, 'Well, If I'da known it woulda been worth so much someday I'da never (insert your choice of stupid modification)?
The gun is far more important than some miscellaneous owner's miscellaneous need to place fewer pellets in a circle at 40 yards, or to not have to bend his neck 1 more centimeter, or to have a slightly softer surface to place against his shoulder when shooting.
I am sure there are those who would buy the Mona Lisa, were she for sale, and finally fix that glaring omission of a mustache.
I am probably going to regret asking this question, but how would anyone know chokes were altered anyway if done by a first rate shop like Briley or Kolar or some lesser known but expert barrel person?
How would anyone know my 32" gun with improved cylinder in both barrels was somehow modified from original? Dunno. Parker research information usually includes pattern data, so expert barrel work does not always hide a modern modification.
Erik, on a Parker it is a pretty straightforward determination. Parker chokes did not have parallels at the muzzle. Instead, the choke taper extends to the exact muzzle. Any opening creates a parallel in these.
I have the opposite problem on a Lefever, the chokes are too open. Can they be tightened? It is a nice CE with 26 barrels great fun to shoot, light to carry, and the local pheasants love it but the gun can not hit anything except skeet coming at me on station 1.
That wasn't so bad. Thanks Joe.
The few(too few) Parkers I've owned did have parallel sections of 1/2" or more in what I'm sure were the original chokes. The Lefevers I've observed had a continuous taper, from the beginning of the choke(not the entire length of the barrel to the muzzle. Not what I've seen on Parkers.
In many cases, the way a Parker left the "dusty little plant down in Meriden" is a matter of record and available in the form of a research letter from the Parker Gun Collector's Association. Such things as stock dimensions, barrel length, chamber length, pellet count per barrel in a 30" circle (those things that are usually the victims of modification)are often available in the letter. A subsequent owner or prospective buyer has this information available to him either before the sale or after. In either case, that's how anyone would ever know. And these things are the cause of reduced value of an otherwise "untouched" Parker.
JoeWood
Your information regarding parallels at the muzzle is incorect. Parker chokes from Parker Bros. in Meriden Ct were "ogee" with about a quarter inch or so of parallel at the muzzles. Remington subsequently used their own choke formula after the mid-thirties and that's about when the parallel feature ended.
WOW I am not worthy, just wanted to down a grouse for my Setter. I might just buy a spanish gun, no one seems to care much about them. ( I do like the idea of using polywad spreaders, I have been using RST's but sure would a little more open pattern) Thanks Larry
Larry,
My opinions are not worth any more than anyone else's, but, here they are. I fall in with the ones who say leave a HIGH condition one alone, but only if it is truly HIGH condition. They are the ones the collectors really want badly. If you want to use the gun yourself for what you said, and intend to keep it, open'em up. Maybe not as much as you're thinking, though. You can always take more out, but you can't put it back.
As for the highly touted spreader loads, they are just that. BUT, they will not open a mod. or full choked gun into a decent woodcock gun, as one suggested. Unless one has the opportunity to pass-shoot high flying migrations. They absolutely will not. I have tried many, many different spreader loads. Some store bought, some I loaded myself using short wads, post wads, x-dividers, soda-straws in the shot, and combinations of the above. I've NEVER found one that would reliably pattern well and open the pattern up any more than the equivalent of about .010" constriction. And this is at their BEST. So, the full barrel might shoot as open as modified, and the mod. barrel might shoot as open as improved cylinder. Might, I stress. If that's enough, then spreaders are all you need, and you've saved money on top of preserving the "sanctity" of a Parker.
I, not being a purist collector, might even pay a bit MORE for a gun in which the chokes had been modified, if they were more useful to me. I rather believe there are more buyers out there who feel like me about that than ones who are purist Parker collectors. And lets face it, not many of us has any need for full chokes in 20 guage guns today, anyway. Oh yeah, except purist collectors who can stare at it in the safe and say, "It's all original!".
Stan
Very well said, Stan! Your experience with spreader loads is valuable, too. They are not magic, will not turn Full/full into skeet/skeet. They are a pain to make and expensive.
A Parker or any other desirable gun that is not in very high original condition is not worthy of the sacred "leave it alone" commandments so freely handed down from "those on high". It still is, and always was, your call, Larry.
The other solution might be to learn how to shoot better then it won't matter what chokes you have.