Curious, with all the short chambered British and American guns that were made over a hundred years ago, and currently offered for sale, how many have had thousands of 2.75" shells shot through them over these past several decades?

Comments?

Pretty much all of mine get low pressure 2 3/4" loads. None of them get off the shelf common 2 3/4"loads however I am sure most of my guns have had plenty of them before they were mine.

Major Sir Gerald Burrard, The Modern Shotgun, Volume II, “The Cartridge”, 1955 3rd Revised Edition, p. 154 in reference to modern “star” crimped paper cases
“For all practical purposes any increase in pressure due to the longer cartridge case really does not exist provided the correct powder and shot charges for a nominal 2 1/2 inch cartridge are used.”

A summary of Bell's and Armbrust's study is about 1/3 down here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

I never shoot the short shells. 2 3/4” in all my 2 1/2” 12’s with appropriate loads. Have never noticed any problems such as frayed case mouths, etc. and that’s many, many thousands of rounds.

My experience with one gun indicated that patterns were substantially inferior when I used 2 3/4" shells.

Unless the chamber or forcing cones have been reemed out I I suspect 2 1/2” guns can handle proper 2 3/4” shells if the pressure is moderate. Problem is we need to anticipate the dumbest shooter in the world not the safest do the near universal use proper legenth loads admonition. That automaticity rules out 95% of the Gactory loads which most are too high pressure. By default dumbo buys shorter shells which almost all are safe pressure options.

In my doubles I just use low pressure loads in all of them. I cut down a thousand Federal paper cases at a time to 2 1/2” and only use low pressure loads in Federal. That way I know every Federal is safe for all my doubles. Two basic loads are 1150 FPS with an ounce and now a slightly heavier 1 1/16 ounce load which I very pleased with. A third slightly lighter load is 7/8 or 3/4 ounce for Skeet and Sporting clays. I don’t feel under gunned and don’t worry about wounded birds with clay targets. Reloading is such a gift to old double gun users.

Every gun must be evaluated as to its fitness to fire 2 3/4 shells. However there is a post on 16 ga.com from a article in DGJ, winter 2001 on shooging 2 3/4 shells in 2 1/2 chambers using verious modern loads with pressure recorded. Then same loDs with the forcing cone lengthen, and fily with the chamber lengthen to 2 3/4. You will be enlightened to zee how little the pressure rises. To make things more interesting the also shot 3" shells with no damage. This test only takes in consideration the action of the gun and not the old wooden stock. Worth the read and its about as scientific a study as is available.

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B.Cole, reading past your cursory 1st sentence, youir “However” and theme of post shows you (wink) endorse shooting 2 3/4 and EVEN 3 " shells in 2 1/2 chambers and in barrells of any age of any type of steel or composit and with out consider that some lighter weight guns have thin walls ahead of chambers. How is it internet xperts extrapolate limited data and paint it every where with a broad brush while poopoo'ing the warnings from facory professionals on shotgun cartridge boxes. You seem to be a fox man and post on the fox site forum. Please explain why in later years savage Corp would not accept short chamber Phil guns to repair without recut to 2 3/4 and new proofing. thank youu.

It is true that per Sherman Bell's tests the pressure increase due to the longer case was not all that great. Average 738 psi. However, there was one shell tested that resulted in an increase of 1,216 psi. And if you're starting with a factory shell made to 2 3/4" pressure standards (figure maybe another 1,000 psi), then it's possible you could run into trouble shooting such loads in 2 1/2" chambers. But if you know what you're doing and if the gun is in good condition and safe to shoot to start with, you can certainly make up reloads in 2 3/4" hulls that will be perfectly safe in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. The only exception would be those guns--usually dating back to the 19th century--that have very short and sharply tapered forcing cones. In some of those, even British/European shells made up in 2 3/4" hulls but specifically for use in 2 1/2" chambers shouldn't be used. You'll usually know right away: Increased recoil, and/or the end blown off the hull. In those guns, only true 2 1/2" shells should be used.

Why not just use 2 1/2" shells in 2 1/2" marked shotguns? They are readily available, same with hulls and components. Even discarded inexpensive 2 3/4" Euro hulls can be had for free and cut down. Mec makes adaptors for their reloaders to load 2 1/2" shells. I have Mec's in 16ga and 12ga set up for 2 1/2"

I don't even bother with 2 3/4" shells any longer, 2 1/2" shells work just fine in my 2 3/4" guns and I never have to sort through shells to make sure I have the correct ones. Even all my waterfowl loads are in 2 1/2" using ITX or Bismuth. The only 2 3/4" loads I do any longer are 1 1/4 ounce coyote loads for my combo guns.


I doubt there are many 2 1/2" chambered shotguns used for really high volume shooting where loading or buying 2 1/2" shells would be problematic.

BCole "To make things more interesting the also shot 3" shells with no damage"

Larry: I no longer have “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001
Bell tested two 1 1/4 oz. loads but could you please check and see if they were 3"?

Hi all, good discussion, of course this subject has been on this board before. Still, good to resurrect it now and then.

Anyway, I've been using 2 3/4" in my 2 1/2" guns for a few years now. No ill effects, no torn case mouths or any other problems with the wood etc.

I do reload however, I only have 1 load each for hunting in my 12b and 16b guns. I keep the pressures at 6700psi (12b) and 7000psi (16b). That gives me more than 1000psi less than the Service Pressure for my Brit guns. I feel this is a good buffer.

Bell's article is well worth reading, sure does open ones eyes.

Anyway, my 2c worth.

Best,

Greg

I totally agree with Greg....I wouldn't dream of shooting regular 2 3/4" ammo in my short chambered guns. Reloading opens a whole new world though. And several of my short chambered guns are nearly 150 years old!

For the cost of a 600jr and a short kit an entire world of reloading possibilities is opened.

Proper stewardship of vintage guns includes the responsability of using the correct ammo. 2 1/2" is readily available, or reload for them. It just goes with the territory.

Interesting comments from all. Yes All old guns need to be evaluated by a competent gunsmith before firing any shells 2 1/2 or 2 3/4. That being said, when using light load shells, Mr. Bell's findings show that there is little pressure rise in shooting 2 3/4 in shorter chambers.
Yes I shoot Foxes, Parker's, and LC's. All checked out by a smith and all so far with chambers at 2 3/4 inch. So far no cracked stocks and no loose actions. Yes Savage did check all Philly Foxes return for repair. Any not found with enough metalin the barrels to lengthen the the chamber were fitted with new barrel. Foxes with the #4 light weight barrel were suspect.

Joe, Unlike days of old when 2 3/4 shells loaded did in fact measure
2 3/4, todays 2 3/4 shells measure; 2 1/4 inches loaded and 2 5/8 fired! When we consider the difference in shell case thickness Card vs plastic; the modern 2 3/4 shell can enter the forcing cone of a 2 1/2 chamber without any meaning full restriction. This is why you do not see any evidence of case fraying.
My long standing concern is that many users of 2 1/2 inch chambered English guns do not realize that there is a maximum pressure limit designed into such guns. Extending the chambers of a 2 1/2 inch chambered gun to 2 3/4 [removing metal ]dose not make them safe to shoot 2 3/4 shells that develop higher breech pressures.

What wads are you guys using with 2-1/2 hulls?

Anybody care to share any recipes?

Hi all, one of the main reasons why I use reloaded 2 3/4" in my 2 1/2" guns is the payload factor. I hunt only wild birds. No Game farm or planted birds, strictly wild ones. I like to use a payload of 1 1/8oz. That extra 1/8oz can be the difference between a dead bird or a cripple. Those of you who hunt or have hunted wild pheasants know what I'm talking about. When loaded with low pressure and lower velocity (1150 to 1175fps) loads a 2 3/4" reload will do the trick. I have yet to see a factory 2 1/2" with a payload of 1 1/8oz. I've also never seen a reload recipe with that payload either. If any of you have, I'm all ears.

Just a thought on why I use 2 3/4" in my 2 1/2" guns.

Best,

Greg

Drew, Bell did indeed test two 3" loads in his test barrels with 2 1/2" chambers. One of them resulted in a pressure increase of 1442 psi. And of course the fired hulls had blown ends etc.

The flip side of the above is also true. If you reload 2 3/4" American hulls to appropriate pressures, you have no need to buy 2 1/2" shells. But why bother, since 2 1/2" factory shells are indeed available . . . assuming you have them on hand before you head to Bowbells, North Dakota for your next hunt--where I guarantee you won't find them at the local Wal-Mart (assuming there is one). So, in either case, you need to have appropriate ammo on hand, and you can do it either by buying 2 1/2" factory shells . . . or by making your own by using readily available 2 3/4" hulls.

The advantage of making your own: If you shoot your 2 1/2" gun very much--and I've put thousands of rounds through various 2 1/2" guns over the years--you will save enough money to buy yourself another 2 1/2" gun (or two). Reloading for the 12ga in particular, it's very easy to achieve low pressures, and it's very inexpensive.

Take your pick.

Thank you Larry. I assume that was the 2 1/2” chamber with a 7/16” forcing cone “British chamber”.

With over sixty seasons under my belt, I've yet to have to have to go to the local store to buy shells for my shotgun. My father did have to go to the local store(Lily, WI)to buy shells for a borrowed shotgun, sure enough they had 2 7/8" 10ga on the shelf but that was 1957.

I have read in the past & it was written by a "Qualified" Ballistician. There are numerous factors which all play an important role in determining pressures in a Rifle & all must be considered. In a shotgun, the pressure is built into the shell with few outside factors of much consequence.

The few caveats worth mentioning are;
1st As already stated the built-in pressure should definitely be compatible with the gun intended to be used with said shells.
2nd, the above statement about the pressure being built into the shell assumes the crimp is free to open. Two things which can affect this are the "Loaded" shell enters the cone which restricts the opening of the crimp. This is a strog possibility if loading a roll crimp true 2 3/4" case in a 2½" chamber. As already mentioned a stepped chamber rather than a cone is also a No-No. I have always relied on my own judgment rather than going to a "Qualified" Gunsmith but its hard for me to imagine anyone with enough knowledge to make a decision about using the longer hull who would not check out the cone. A quick glance into the breech will show that step as opposed to a cone.