Sorry to interrupt this pissing match. I stopped being a constant visitor years ago because of this BS. Can't believe my timing to jump right back into it the thick of it. Damn, I loved the good ole days. But can I indulge someones attention to find a hammer for a friends LC Specialty SN#RE 77920. 12 gauge. It's on the right side if it makes a difference. It's broke in two pieces. Also it looks like the firing pins are slightly miss matched. Might need a set of those also. Anyone having the part or knows of a source I would appreciate a reply. I will not challenge your political leanings or gender preference. Best to all the vintage friends of years ago. Hi GEO. Hope all is well. Randy email: randymccune88@gmail.com

Randy,

Have you checked Numrich? They had some hammers last time I visitied the site. Also look on ebay, LC lock parts show up often. Check the Brophy book of LC engineer plans, they will tell if there is a difference between left and right. I,ll look later when I return and post.

good luck,
John

I have one.








But I wouldn't sell it to yOu jump'n all side wayz in the road up in cheer like u have...hell with U n you hamma

I have hammers, bridles, springs, sears for a 12 gauge L.C. Smith-- also cocking rods, V bolt spring, etc. Your Specialty Grade takes the later style firing pins--the pre-1913 Smiths take a slightly different style, especially the early models with the bushings- RWTF

Don't sell it to the yankee fOx

Joseph, Joseph, Joseph-- You apparently have forgotten that I am a Yankee as well as Mr. RMC--my gun parts, and op books, older sporting related magazines are for sale to anybody who travels Dave's forum site- even to you, you old renegade--

I agree.

Northern Michigan? Charlevoix or Traverse City?


___________________________
Damn Yankee Lad, Lonny Rhodes, Detroit, Michigan

Apparently friends with Geo also which makes him doubly suspect.

I’d take cash only, Fox.


___________________________
Michigan! the water wonderland, what a lovely place to be!

Don't worry about RMC. He's a way better guy than me. I wish he'd take up posting here again...Geo

Well, if it ever comes to that, I’ve got your six, Geo.

You are one of the best, here.


Best,
Ted

I was just joking Fox...I have buddy that needs a butt stock for a 1913 L.C.Smith 20 gauge.

Two kinds of L C Smith owners in this world. Those who need a stock for one. And those who will need a stock for one.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

I'll second that, Ted. A true Southern Gentleman- polite, good listener and very knowledgeable as well.

That would mean he needs a buttstock for the FW frame series- Does he want an original 1913 stock- possibly from a "parts gun" or a later stock blank he can fit-

Re-stocking L.C. Smiths, as well as other sidelock shotguns, is a job calling for a top-rate stocker, not a job for an "rookie" with a few chisels on the bench. I very seldom if ever get buttstocks or forearms for not only Smiths, but other American doubles as well. Good luck!!

An orginal or a repair...it's cracked pretty good...it appears all there.

Any recommendations on a fixer ?

My "Debut" into gunsmithing was near onto 60 years ago. An uncle had an old Belgian hammer double marked W Richards (JABC) with a broken stock. At the time I "Thought" it was my Grandads, so I talked him out of it & decided to make a stock for it. One would be absolutely amazed at just how few Tools I used to make that stock. If I must say so myself, few people ever saw it I did a pretty decent job on it.

Then I found out it wasn't really my Grandad's gun but had actually been bought for my uncle when he was still at home. My Dad had got mixed up on the guns, my Grandads was also a W Richards but had Birmingham proofs. Still not a high-grade gun as such but had been better than the Belgian one. That one had some problems also so I finagled around with my uncle & traded him the one I had restocked back for the other one. A couple of years later he asked me one day if I could identify it if I saw it & I said yes, I could tell it by the stock I had made. It had disappeared & he had a couple of young boys working for him on his farm & though they might have stolen it.

About a year passed & he came by my house one day & told me he had found it. Seems he had gone out one day doing some fencing & carried it with him. While working on the fence he had laid it on the ground between the fence & a small creek & then forgot he had it with him. After lying on that creek bank for about a year it was, of course, a hopeless case.

Point is though when a person is determined enough they can accomplish a lot with little.

Ps; Most of the chisels I used were homemade. At the time my Dad worked for a sporting goods company where they made golf clubs. He brought me a few reamers which they used to ream the holes in the wood heads for the shaft. Making sure I didn't get them hot enough to draw the temper I ground my chisels from these. My outside shaping was mostly done with a drawknife & a rasp, then sandpaper.

Who's the best at this type repair

Cracker Barrel. They repair it by nailing it up on the wall.

That gun isn’t worth the trouble. Of all the folk on this board who need to hear that, I wouldn’t have believed you would have been one of ‘em.

Best,
Ted

jOe, if there is no oil present in that stock, it can be fixed.
It looks like a break from falling not from shooting all though by the looks of the top lever it has been shot a lot.

How about the dents on the left hand side barrel-breech area and- what are the bores like?-- 1913 era 20 Smith on the FW frame, betcha someone shot newer 2&3/4" hulls in that old "Elsie"-- but I agree, the stock at the wrist and around the lockplates- looks like a fall while hunting, the gun hitting the earth before the gunner did.

I'd try to find a stock for that shotgun, as repairs for those deep cracks in critical section of the wood near the lock plates and top tang look ???? to me--RWTF

jOe I've had several gunstocks fixed by these folks. Prices are reasonable and the work is stronger than original and looks very good...Geo

<http://www.stockfixrs.com/>

My buddy said there were no dents in the barrels....the lever does look over pretty good.

Thanks George...it's doesn't look strong enough for a tomato stake..if it was mine I'd spruce it up a little chop the barrels to 12 or 14 inches and make it into a table lamp.

My experience is that most folks in TN hold the L C Smith in rather high Esteem. On our Cracker Barrel walls, we find JABCs & perhaps an occasional Darne.

Personally, I have only ever owned one Elsie, it was a pre-1913 00-grade ejector & while it had been rode hard & put away wet, its stock was all in one piece & unsplit.
I have seen quite a few Boxlock Ithaca Flues's with split stocks, more than I have Smiths.

Not everyone in thia old world hates a Smith.

Amen.

I was thinking that there are two kinds of Darne owners. Those who think they want one, and those who know they want to get rid of one.

Couldn't resist that, Ted.

Best, SRH

I figure I’m good until I start seeing things like this about Darne guns:

http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

Maybe everyone doesn’t hate a ‘Smith, but, some people do.

Best,
Ted

Yep. I'm aware of Dewey's feelings about Smiths, and many other makes, too. I'm not the perfectionist he is, and I've found Smiths to be very shootable guns. Only own one at the moment, this 32" 16 ga. dove and crow slayer. But, there's another heading my way later this week for a "hands on". From the pics it looks pretty special, to me.



Keep warm, buddy. SRH

Actually there are 3 kinds of Darne owners...the third one is the one that wonders what wus I thinking when I bought the French bumpoer zyack...

Which Darne?

https://youtu.be/Msy1ueUT0o8

Best,
Ted

Once hunting in Alabama I saw what once was the worlds biggest trap collection...it was in a big modern barn sitting next to the Black River. One room contained nothing but mouse traps.
It reminded of the Darne shootgun...many designs were made but very few survived.

Stan the 16 with 32” barrels sounds dreamy

I wonder what RymanGunDog Dave would have to say about this L.C. Smith discussion? I think someone like the Stock Doctor could repair that broken 20 gauge, but it wouldn't be cheap. But 20 gauge L.C.Smiths aren't cheap either, so I would probably de-oil the wood and do the repair myself with some hidden pins and Titebond II or AccraGlass epoxy.

I agree with Miller. I have several L.C. Smith guns with no cracks behind the locks, and a few that have small stable cracks that got no worse with the loads I used in them. I also see a lot of Flues with split wood at the action. And I see plenty of Parkers and Remingtons with bolts, screws, and dowels through the stock cheeks. Fragile and broken wood above and below the sideplates are one of the weaknesses on my favorite Syracuse Lefever guns.

I've found serviceable L.C. Smith buttstocks at gun shows for $40-50, and seen plenty sold on eBay for around $100.00 or less. But I don't know how lucky you'd get finding one that fit easily. Worth a shot considering the cost to restock a Smith, and you could always sell the wood to someone else if it won't work. I vote for trying to save it, but I like projects and do my own work.

You ain't going to believe this my Georgia buddy thought it was a 20 ga. but then he found out it was a 16 ga...and he got rid of it.

A nail through the middle of that stock, and another pounded through the barrels, and it’ll be right where it always belonged, on the wall at Cracker Barrel.

Your friend might be brighter than you think he his.

Best,
Ted

I believe it because I've seen a few guns either grow or shrink in gauge during shipping. I bought a 12 gauge Lefever H grade that turned out to be a 10 gauge. H grades were supposed to be built in 20, 16, and 12 gauge only, and I have never seen another H in 10 gauge.

Then I bought a 12 gauge Lefever I grade with automatic ejectors. I grades were supposed to only be built in 12 gauge and very few had automatic ejectors. This gun turned out to be one of four known 16 gauge I grades, and the only known 16 gauge I grade with automatic ejectors.

A field grade 16 gauge L.C. Smith is a nice bird gun, and this gun was worth saving. It might not make economic sense to pay a high dollar gunsmith to repair or restock it, but it would have been a great project, at the right price, for a skilled hobbyist.

He bought it at a Pawn shop for 100 bucks...they sold it to him as a 20 guage so it's not all his fault.

I hope he sold it for more tha. $100.00. He could have got more than that for a decent set of 16ga. L.C. Smith barrels. He could have advertised them here in the double gun forum to avoid paying Dave the customary $10.00 fee. Seems to be the thing to do.

Last I heard he has it back...the buddy he sold it to thought it was a 20ga. also.
Took a gunsmith to get them Georgia boys straitened out.

You should offer to auction it off here on Doublegunshop shotgun forum. No fees or commissions like Gunbroker or other auction sites. I'd go with a 7 day auction with no reserve.

Another good reason to carry and choke gauge with you when you shop for used side-by-sides. Snap caps in the popular gauges are also a good idea-- especially if the gun has automatic ejectors.RWTF

Fox I don't think it was a case of shopping as much as a case of thinking he had ran up on something....

Joe- do I take your reply to mean, that in spite of the condition of that Field (or OO) grade Smith, he felt a $100 price was a good deal if it was indeed a 20 bore, but not such a deal if it was a 16??

16 gauge guns have their "wax and wane" in popularity-- I think the "smart money" will move towards the 20-- Look at the pricing and availability of 16 gauge loads at, say, Cabela's-- small potatoes compared the shelves of 12 and 20, and not including the steel shot 12 gauge loads in 3" Mag, and even 3&1/2"--

I can see a fine 16 doublegun for quail, dove, grouse and woodcock, but to my mind, pheasant either driven (Tower shoots) or over far ranging flushing dawgs-and waterfowl- is a 12 gauge realm..

Fox you have such a way of getting so much out so little I said...

The smart money would reduce the gun to a pile of parts, and auction them off, one at a time, to people who need them.

They would all sell quickly.

I have my doubts about a Darne ever ending up on a wall at a Cracker Barrel.

Especially in Tennessee. There are places where Darnes are common, but, you generally fly in a plane for a day from Tennessee to be in that place.

Best,
Ted

I have NEVER EVER seen an LC Smith hanging on a Cracker Barrel Wall, Never. I have been in quite a few Cracker Barrels in my time & they originated in TN.
Some years back an article appeared in the American Rifleman entitled "Americanization of a VC" as I recall. Seems an officer with the US Military was retiring & his status allowed him to take back one war souvenir. Someone already had one picked for him, but he didn't want it, requested to be able to pick it himself. He was carried to a warehouse & showed a BIG pile of guns of all descriptions just tossed on the pile. He went & changed into some old clothes & spent 2-3 hours digging through until he found something that suited him. His Pick. A 20 gauge Darne with all metal coated in rust but didn't appear to be badly pitted. It was totally Sans Wood of any description. I seriously doubt Cracker Barrel would have accepted it as I also have never seen a gun grace their walls sans a stock. To make this as short as possible he carried it home cleaned it up, blued it etc & made a new stock for it all on his very own. He was not a professional Stocker, just a rank Amateur.

We are all quite aware of your opinion of the Smith, most of us here do not agree with it. I have owned Smiths in the past but do not at present, but even 10 years ago I would have certainly jumped on that 16 gauge for $100.00 like a duck on a June Bug. Smith at least knew where the safety on a shotgun belonged, under the thumb.

We live in enlightened times. One of the things that I find enlightening is how some of the best gunsmiths, who consistently produce the best work, have washed their hands of work of any sort involving L C Smith’s.

The safety you are so happy with the location of is a poorly made, sloppy mess according to one of them. You can disagree with him. The guy with the Vietnamese Darne had a gun that, while not ergonomically perfect for everyone, was a hand made and well engineered example of the gun makers art. The barrels were silver soldered in a mono block. Not soldered with corrosive flux. There are other comparisons I could make that highlight the differences, but, you should get the point. Time hasn’t been kind to the shortcomings of the ‘Smith, and the sad example our own jOe posted is not a rare sight at most gunshows.

I think you would actually be surprised at the number of people right here who agree with guys like Dewey, and have moved along.

Col Frederick Roseman was an advanced gun tinkerer, by the way, not a rank amateur. He noted in the article he had been able to get any shotgun apart in his hobby, but, almost met his match with the Darne.

Best,
Ted

Miller, correct me if I am wrong, but don't you shoot a Darne Halifax???Gil

I am fond of the L.C. Smiths--I prefer to own and shoot the pre-1913 graded ones in 12 gauge-- But I read and re-read Dewey Vicknair's thesis on various double guns, and would agree with him 100% on his analysis of the Smith hammerless mechanics-- ditto the faults with the Ithaca Flues, and of the over-complexities of the Parker design.

That being said, I got involved with "Elsies" because: (1) there were more of them on the market, especially in 12 gauge, at pricing way below the Parker and A.H. Fox shotguns, and because I found the lines of a sidelock shotgun more "graceful" than those of a boxlock double.

I have never shot anything "hotter" than a AA Trap load in any of my Smiths--and over the years, I have epoxied the wood of the stock head in that "vulnerable" area under the locks--

I only own 1 Smith post 1913 series- a Ideal Grade "LONGRANGE" series- 32" F&F, DT, AE- and in the past 5 years since I bought it, have NEVER shot a 3" Mag shell in it, nor any Steel shot either. It had been in storage for years since the original owner bought it, and no cracks in the wood anywhere. I intend to see that it stays that way. I mainly use it on high crows and barn pigeons with AA 7&1/2 Trap loads-- if I do my part, birds crumple and leave a big cloud of feathers in the air.

The only gunsmiths I know of who work on Smiths today are: (1) Buck Hamlin in Mo., and (2) Jerry Andrews in West VA. No doubt, some of the gents on the L.C. Smith Collectors know of others.

Gil;
Let's say that I do own a 16 gauge Halifax @ 5lb 14oz. I have shot it, Some. From about 1970 to the present the vast majority of my shooting has been done with an FE grade Lefever. At that point in time, I was not as fully convinced of shooting Damascus as at present. I had a set of 26" Boehler Steel barrels made for it in Italy choked .012-.024 With it I have killed quail, woodcock, duck, rabbits, a few squirrels & a couple of Turkey.

My second most used gun was a J P Clabrough 12 gauge Damascus with 28" barrels choked .010/.010. I used it on quail, woodcock & rabbit using 1 oz loads of either #8 or #6 @ about 1150 fps.

Don't read me wrong, the Darnes are good guns but so are the Smiths. There are those who like either or both, those who like one but not the other & those who don't particularly like either. Purdey, Boss & H&H are well outside my budget, so frankly I'm like the Wise Old Owl, I don't truly give a Hoot what Mr Vickner thinks of the Smith. He probably doesn't like my Lefevers or the lowly Clabrough either, but I do.

Rinky Tinky or whatever Ted called it, I'll take the thumb push Smith safety over the abomination of the Darne safety any day of the week. Never had a problem with the safety on any Smith I ever owned. I too prefer sidelock guns over boxlocks. Admittedly the Lefever is not a true sidelock, but its handling is more like one than a boxlock. Notice sometimes that for a given length of barrel & pull a typical side lock is a wee bit longer than a typical boxlock. The triggers on the sidelock are from ½-1 inch further back from the barrel breech. This gives a slight difference in balance point & handling, A feel I prefer.
This is primarily due to the placement of the locks. The Lefever has essentially an identical lock placement to the sidelock so the same feel.

Truly I only joined this discussion because of the idea that a complete L C Smith in 16 ga with an easily repairable stock by a proficient amateur should be either Nailed to a Cracker Barrel Wall or Parted out in Pieces was just more than my tolerance level allowed. In my "Personal" opinion for whatever it's worth either of those solutions is Sheer Ignorance of the value of the gun in question.

None of this is intended as a Personal Attack on anyone's opinion, just we all have different ones & I normally do not " Bad Mouth" another man's gun which he likes & suits him, even if I don't personally care for them myself. Sometimes though one just gets pushed over the Edge.

He's taking offers...

Your buddy looking for marks, er, customers, for the chunks of that $100 gun?

Best,
Ted

I'll give him a $150 plus money to Dave if the barrels aren't cut or any sharp dents in them.

I'll check with him and let you know...he might have traded it.

My buddy doesn't know anything about doubles...

He told me he didn't see any signs of dents in the barrels...I asked him to look for shiny spots on the outside of the barrels as that was a sign of a dent being raised...he said he didn't see any.
Some pitting in the barrels he doesn't think they are that bad and the lock up is a little loose.

No Ted he's not looking for a mark...just a younger guy that knows nothing about doubles.

If he had asked me first I'd have advised him to keep walking.

Sorry David he said he sold it for $400 to a local guy.