I have a Hollenbeck drilling that has severe throat erosion and an oversized neck in the .30-30 chamber. Been going 'round and 'round trying to decide what to do about it.

The barrel OD is about .425 at the muzzle. I 'spect that's too thin to reline, eh? I think one of the liners I was looking at was .440 OD, haha.

Maybe a reline to .25-30?

A bore to .32 WS was also suggested to me, but again I dunno if the barrel OD is thick enough, and the chamber may be too eroded for that anyway. But this would be ideal, if it would be safe. That'll be a darn thin barrel, though, especially at the muzzle where it's polished thin on the bottom.

Any particular gunsmiths y'all would recommend for such a procedure? The places I've looked won't do double-rifles (which I assume includes drillings, I assume because they don't have the right lathe jaws for offset work).

I hate to butcher an antique gun like that. But a gun that isn't shootable has no place in my collection.

Thanks!

I would take a 375 Winchester and run it through a 30-30 sizing die with a .308 or .309 expander ball.
This should give you a thicker neck and provide support.
Then use a 180 to 190 grain gas checked cast bullet sized to .311 and set the cartridge overall length to support the round.
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has loading data

OR have Rocky Mountain Brass make you some Everlasting cases
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/

What do you think about these options

Mike

Fun reading
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/303-british-saeco-305-180gr-fngc/

Consider fire forming the brass to match up to the chamber?

I have a smokeless proofed 8x58R Sauer of unknown German make on which the rifle barrel measures @ 0.435" for about half its length. Groove diameter on it measures .321" so about the same as the .32WS. That would be only .005" difference in wall thickness.

The chamber has a ring of erosion/pitting in it, and the cases expand into it and stick really bad. I'm not sure what to do about that. I tried chucking up a wire brush in a drill and cleaning the hell out of it, but no change.

The ID of the fired case mouth is around 0.32 as I recall. The muzzle is still about 0.308. That seems a pretty excessive difference to me, but... I don't really know much.... There's definitely about an inch or so in front of the chamber where the rifling is gone or very weak, or so it appears when peering down the barrel.

The gunsmith I showed it to said a rechamber to .30-40 Krag would get rid of the bad spot in the chamber and get up closer to good rifling, but that the chamber area seems a bit thin for that.

Then recently I read about relining (which I'd previously thought they'd only do on rimfires, but apparently low-pressure centerfires are fair game too).

I just can't seem to figure out what to do, heh. I guess I could "just shoot it", but I hate to have to break it open over my knee to get the cases to extract. That'll break something eventually I'd think.....

I too was thinking of 30-40 krag for a re-chamber to a longer case. But was also thinking the chamber walls may not be heavy enough.
Another option that is more work than it is worth would be to replace the tube completely. Through sleaving.

I'd consider sleeving the chamber and the throat. Done as far in as the chambering reamer will cut a new throat for you so the new chamber and throat flows nicely into the old bore. You get a new chamber and as much of a new throat as possible to get rid of the old burned up one.

Done right and with a tight metal to metal fit joint up front, it'll stand up just fine with any 30-30 loads I'd want to put thru a skimpy bbl'd drilling of that age.

Sleeving just the chamber or the chamber and throat of the bbl was not an uncommon repair on single and double rifles in low pressure rounds.
Some were done better than others of course.

You could even do the new chambering in 32-40WCF w/a 30cal pilot on the reamer. Then size the 32-40 brass FL but do not expand them. They then hold .308d bullets just fine.
32-40 pressures are quite a bit lower than 30-30 IIRC.

JMO and thoughts

Mr Polecat,
Before you do any thing to the gun, try trimming a case neck short enough that it doesn't cause a problem with the "ring", then try .311-.312 bullets( first cast, then if a jacketed bullet "falls" into a fired case, try them. You can load the bullets to the normal OAL. A 30-30 case neck should be long enough to allow this. If it works, great; if not, you are no worse off than you were yesterday.
Mike

The ring is way down at the bottom of the shoulder, unfortunately.

Mr. Polecat,
Do you think it would clean up if you opened the throat up .003-.004" to go along with a .311-.312" bullet? You should not rechamber to 30-40 under any circumstances. It is much larger than the 30-30 and would make the chamber wall too thin.
Mike

Should Mr. Polecat even consider sending a .311-312" diameter bullet down a presumably .308" bore in a rifle barrel that has thin walls and already has a ringed chamber? I realize the increased pressure probably wouldn't mean much in a stout bolt action with a thicker barrel in good condition, but this sounds questionable. Or are you suggesting that he also have the barrel rebored and rifled to the next larger bore size? I'd imagine this would be very difficult (and costly) to do with a drilling.

I'd maybe be looking at some smaller .308" diameter chamber insert for a smaller low pressure cartridge, even if it required some wild-cat creativity to form brass and reload. Of course, this likely won't be satisfactory if the goal is to use it for deer hunting. And it might involve having an exceedingly long throat which wouldn't do much for accuracy. Sometimes, it just makes more economic sense to simply retire a gun and either sell it as is, hang it above the fireplace, or part it out.

"IF" he could find the right person tp do it the bores could be "Freshed" to take .311"-.312"m bullets ala muzzle loader style & not have to be Bored. This of course assuming that enlarging the neck by only that amount would clean it up.
I do not know who might could do this work or what it might cost though.

Not that many of those Hollenbeck drillings around, shame to lose it if can at all be saved

As close as .311 and .308 are, the bore might just be a matter of deepening the grooves a bit. .321 might be a bit much for that, though, I dunno. People used to shoot .311 bullets through the old .308 bore Mini-30 all the time, and nothing blew up. Just wasn't as accurate as it ought to have been, I reckon.

My biggest concern is the chamber, though. I don't know what can be done about that other than:

1. rechamber to .30-40 Krag, which probably ought not happen because of the thin chamber.

2. reline the barrel and recut the chamber, which may not be able to happen (at least in .30 caliber) due to the thinness of the barrel. .25-30 or .25-20 might be an option there, though. I'd sure hate to go below .30 though...

I guess there isn't some way to fill the bad spot with some kind of super-special epoxy goo (or weld, though I can't see how that could be done) and then recut the chamber, eh?

Regardless, then there is also the issue of finding a gunsmith that can be trusted to do the work properly. If this gets screwed up, I can't just buy another one. I am not sure I have enough faith in any of the guys I know of around here to do any of this.

I have shot thousands of .311 cast bullets through a .308 bore, no issues.

As far as an eroded chamber, that is a tough nut.

I would say leave the gun as is, and if you need to fire the gun, use a steel chamber insert to fire a hand loaded low pressure 32 H&R Mag round.

Mike

fun reading
https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_chamber_insert.htm

Firing a .311 bullet through a .308 barrel won't hurt anything, as long as the chamber neck diameter is large enough to expand and release the bullet easily. It will be moving when it encounters the rifling and at the low end of the pressure curve. Once it has traveled the length of the bullet's shank in the .308 barrel, the bullet will be .308 also. Of course this assumes a "cup and core" bullet; monolithic bullets sometimes cause pressure spikes in barrels with groove diameter the same as bullet diameter, if there are no relief grooves.
Mike

Would a 30-30 Ackley improved reamer clean up the pitted shoulder area ?

Probably not, but it might be worth a chamber cast to find out. Assuming you can get the casting out past any 'lock ' caused by the errosion.

Another expensive option would be to developer a 30-30 extra long, have a reamer ground that arries the case shoulder forward the requisite amount, and have custom dies made.

There is 30-30 basic brass available that is over 3 inches in length and you just need a .005 or so ?

Could a 30-30 reamer be run a little deeper in the chamber and accomplish the same ?

Unfortunately the bad spot is right at the bottom of the shoulder. I think the only way to be rid of it is to ream to something that is larger in diameter. I don't think .30-30 AI would get it there.

OK, more info, the bad spot is in the NECK, Shoulder, bottom of the shoulder, ??
Mike

So far we have
severe throat erosion and an oversized neck,
The chamber has a ring of erosion/pitting in it.
The ring is way down at the bottom of the shoulder, unfortunately

Yep, this.

Postoak already mentioned the 30-30 A/I,,,,
I believe a rechambering to 30-30 Ackley Improved (30-30 AI) would solve the most severe problem you have of the erosion ring at the bottom of the case shoulder in the chamber.
That's not allowing you to even fire the rifle bbl w/o pounding out the empties from the muzzle.

Here's a link to another unrelated forum and discussion but there is a side by side pic of the standard 30-30 and the 30-30 A/I chamber dimensions. Scroll down the page on the link.

Quite helpful I think in figuring out if the latter would clean up the problem existing in the chamber now..
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread...nd_cast_bullets

The 30-30 AI expands the case body diameter behind the shoulder and moves the shoulder forward (resulting in a shorter neck).
That larger dia case body reaching farther forward may remove that erosion ring causeing the extraction problem.

It'd still chamber and fire standard 30-30WCF. The cases would just fireform to A/I cases.
Minimum material removed from the bbl, no rebore, relineing, ect.

Keep loads (very) reasonable and I think the gun will never know the difference and could be usefull once again.

As for the throat erosion,,perhaps it isn't as big a deal to shooting quality as you might think. Try it w/o any changes. Then if you think cleaning it up a tiny amt by extending the throat and loading the bullets out further will help,,it's a simple hand reamer job.

Chamber reamer rental is quite reasonable these days from a few sources. The 30-30 A/I is generally a common stocked item.
..as are 30cal throating reamers.

,,,,,
The only other thing I can come up with is to run a 303British reamer into the chamber and push the shoulder forward. That'll recut the neck slightly larger than it is right now of course. But you seem to have 'an oversize neck' problem too..
Run the reamer on a .308 pilot of course.

Only deepen with the 303Brit chambering reamer to the depth that the taper of the body of the 303 reamer meets and matches the base dia of the 30-30 chamber (.422d).
The shoulder of the 303Brit chamber and the shoulder of the 30-30WCF chamber are the same at .401d.
Even the shoulder angle is within 1/2 degree.
So perhaps the 303reamer being tapered more than the 30-30 as it cuts deeper, pushing the shoulder forward AND will clean up that erosion ring problem.

You will of course end up with a wildcat sort of a short 303Brit w/a 30-30 case head size.
Depending on how deep this crazy idea allows you to go before the 303 reamer starts to cut away the 30-30 chamber base,,perhaps you can still use 30-30 brass,,or maybe 38-55 brass (a little longer I think.
Size in a 303Brit die and load. Don't use an expander,,just size the brass and 308 bullets will seat just fine.
Or .311 lead down a .308 bore won't hurt with light loads.
This should cut a nice new clean throat in the bbl for you too.
All 3 problems taken care of..!

....if it works of course..Just a goofy idea that's all.

It's hard to be dogmatic without seeing what those thicknesses actually are, but my guess is that this would be the best way to go. Of course you would have to reduce the wall thickness, just as you would with the .30-40, but you would be filling that space with a metal sleeve, so lose-fitting that if the pressure did expand it beyond its elastic limit, it would impose no further risk. This is rather like the principle known as autofrettage in artillery, in which stressing of the inner layers can actually strengthen a barrel.

The thin walled aviation stainless tubes are well worth looking into, for they are extremely tough. There was a vogue in the UK a while back for using them to line shotgun tubes, although this declined due to the effects of extreme heating, and the difficulty of dealing with a dent. You would have to use something like the bearing-fitting grades of Loctite, since the barrels and ribs are presumably soft-soldered.

.22 WCF, .22 Savage High-power and .25-35 were all fairly popular in Europe, and gained their own metric names. I don't believe this was the case with the .30-30, which is unusual to find in a gun of this type. My guess is that it was rechambered from one of the multitude of mostly forgotten 8mm. or 8.15mm. straight-tapered combination gun cartridges. These often had a thicker neck than the .30-30, and almost all used the groove diameter of the J-bore Mausers. This is usually listed as .318in., but could easily have been on the tight side. It would let you in for using something like Bertram brass, but the straight taper would put more strength into the sleeve and barrel, and one of the longer ones would eliminate much of the throat erosion.

Go back to the first post of this thread. The gun is a Hollenbeck, that's US not German. .30-30 was no doubt the original chambering.

I guess it is pretty well known that I am generally opposed to rechambering drillings( except to "normalize a 9.3x72R or 8.15x46R chamber). But I think Kutter's 30-30 AI idea gives the best chance of success, with the least chance of failure. With regard to a chamber liner, it must be shorter than the case so that obturation keeps the high pressure gases out of the joint. Also the liner should be pulled in tightly and held while the glue sets or solder cools( by a threaded rod through the barrel and washers/nuts on both ends), to reduce the size of the joint.
Mike

Just me probably, but messing with the chamber of something so common as a 30-30 will probably lead to trouble for someone down the line...Geo

Geo.
You may be right, but it is trouble now and he is trying to work it out the best way he can.
Mike

The Ackley Improved does sound like a reasonable choice. As the 30-30 headspaces on the rim as mentioned factory rounds can be fired in it & after firing you have fireformed cases for the new chambering. This should not cause any problems down the line. Of course after the initial firing one would not Resize to original 30-30 size.

This of course "IF" the lengthened shoulder will clean up the groove in neck. lso I would not recommend hot loads in the AI case, stick to no more than original pressures, lower would be good. "Supposedly" the lessened body taper will reduce back thrust on firing.

Thanks, guys. I'll talk to some gunsmiths about a .30-30 AI reaming for it. Hopefully then the throat erosion and over-sized neck won't be too big a deal. I have a 1917 Enfield with a pretty awful throat that still shoots fine, so eh... With a down-loaded .30-30, I'll be shooting deer within 100 yards, which doesn't require a target rifle I suppose, heh.

The cases don't stick so badly that I have to pound them out with a rod, but I do have to break the gun open over my knee. I fear that I'll end up breaking something if I keep doing that.

Maybe even if a .30-30 AI reamer doesn't remove ALL of that ring in there, it will remove enough that the cases won't stick nearly as bad, and they'll be undamaged enough to reuse. I'm afraid to try to reuse what comes out of it right now. I'm afraid I'll end up needing a broken case extractor if I do.......

Once I get everything fixed and working right, I am planning to get a set of the Briley ultralight 20ga liners installed in it, too. There's one little place where one of the thin ribs between the rifle and one of the shotgun barrels is slightly separated. I think it's just where there was a dent that was pounded out at some point, and as far as I can tell the barrel isn't split or ringed there, but I'll feel better about shooting it more often once those liners are in there. 20ga is plenty for most of what I hunt anyway.

Hopefully that, and some down-loaded .30-30 AI, will keep the old girl happy until I croak and it gets sold at my estate auction, heh.

Great report
Looking forward to an update as time goes on
Mike

Though it seems the thread has moved in the direction of 30-30 AI I'd like to chime in, in a slightly different direction. A friend came into a Wesson two-trigger rifle chambered in 30-30 Wesson but whose bore was absolutely worthless. He's a pretty good non-professional gunsmith. He relined the bore with a 25 cal liner and chambered it in 25-20.
It's a party to shoot with cast bullets - accurate as all get-out. And it put an old gun back to work.

More 30-30AI talk.

I believe the 30-30AI is the correct route to go but would like to add some cautionary notes:

The Ackley Improved line of cartridges differ from Wildcats as being dimensioned to also fire the parent case when headspaced correctly. To accomplish this with rimless cases the neck/shoulder juncture is made .004"-.005" shorter than the parent chamber. That means if you wish to have a true AI chamber you have to set the barrel back and then recut the chamber. This is not possible in your situation so understand you will end up with a Wildcat, not a true Ackley Imp. chamber.

Because you are working with a rimmed case you can still proceed but be careful not to deepen the rim cut. And when fireforming the brass to the new chamber it is best to form a false shoulder a bit forward on the neck to hold the case against the breachface when firing. This will keep the cases from stretching forward of the web and let the shoulder blow forward. If you are using light loads it may take several firings to fully form the shoulder.

Have the chamber/flats restamped to show the change made as to caution future users.

John