In a current thread discussing PhotoBucket, a request was made to re-post pictures of this E. M. Rielly Side by Side Percussion Shotgun that was originally on this thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=186566, but because of PB's policy, the pictures were not visible.

Here is the basics of that thread with pictures of the EM Rielly:

A good friend just acquired an E. M. Reilly side by side percussion shotgun. In its original oak case and label with a few accessories. It is in really nice condition.

Added some pictures below.

Thanks for any info.

Jolly

.JB. Very nice. 12 bore? hammer gun muzzle loader. I assume the serial number is 12920, should be 1863. The engraving is unusual in that Reilly rarely engraved animals or fowl on his guns.

I am curious about the case label. The label is scolloped and looks original. An 1863 label should be a variant of the generic post 1859 trade label (see the post on labels in the Reilly line). The label is difficult to make out but It looks like it might have the 502 Oxford Street building on it which would be pre 1859. I'm wondering if the serial number of the ramrod is the same as the gun? If the gun matches the trade label on the case and the label has that building and is original, its SN should be 11100 or less. Do you have a picture of the label and of the SN on the gun? (Of course there's always the possibility that the gun has been mated with a different case or the label has been replaced).

Argo,

I forgot to post a picture of the underside of the barrels so I've copied it below. It looks like "12920" is marked on both barrels.

Those pictures were sent to me by the guy that owned the gun, and which I originally posted several years ago, so I don't have a better picture of the label.

I will send him a note to see if he still has the gun and if so, I will see if I can't get a better picture of the label.

Yep, pretty cool gun.

Jolly

JB, I took a closer look at that label and am pretty sure (through the haze and patina and oblique angle) it is pre-1859...it seems to have the 502 Oxford Street building meaning it will have "Reilly" vice E.M Reilly. (jpgbox.com is on the blink so for the moment the label analysis can't be accessed). I can't tell if it has the medals (which would make it post 1855). The label looks original but of course the question arises, did the label belong to that case? and/or did the gun belong to the case?

I did not have this gun in the Reilly master list; it's been added...thanks.

Reilly label 1848-55


1855-58


1859-68 (with variants - sometimes not listing he branch establishment)

Argo and others,

The owner, who still has the gun by the way, sent me a few more pictures including the label as you can see below. And the serial number of the gun is 12920.

The label is tough to make out but that's what it is.

Jolly

bring it along sometime Bill


i have 14 bore wads and cards

and oh yeah - wow nice piece of history

Anyone have any idea as to why the 14 is stamped twice on each barrel & why the decimal mark in front of the one nearest the breech.
My I Hollis caplock is a 12 but it only has the one 12 mark on each barrel. Also a couple of pre 1887 breech loaders only have the one gauge mark.

This Reilly is a very nice looking gun incidentally, a higher grade gun than my Hollis.

My $.02: As mentioned above, 12920 likely was numbered in 1863. The label is definitely 1856-59. The building on the label is 502 Oxford street. This label was adopted in 1848 after the Reillys' move to Oxford Street.

The label has two medals, the 1851 London Crystal Palace exposition and the 1855 Paris Universelle exposition. These labels appeared shortly after the end of the Paris exposition, late 1855 or early 1856 and lasted until the firm's name change from Reilly to EM Reilly in very late 1858 or early 1859.

In addition this label normally should have "Fusils a Bascule" on the top ("center-break long guns" in French - inherited from Lafaucheaux's guns at the 1851 exposition) and "Improved Breech Loaders" indicating Reilly sold new breech loading guns such as Prince 1855 patent guns. The label, though, does not have "fusils a bascule" and thus might be a very early version of the 1856 label. Haven't seen this before and I have save about 8 examples.

The label is not a reproduction; it could have been salvaged and put on the case at some point when/if the case was re-lined - the case does look to be in remarkable shape - or the case is not original with the gun. Whatever, it's a great case, great label and great gun.

Just a couple of comments.
1. Beautiful Gun!!!
2. .14 then 14, Suspect .14 was gauge at Provisional proof,Second mark of 14 was bore at final proof.
3. Label discrepancies. Many gun makers were too frugal to throwaway out of date labels. I've seen over printed with newer address and on a 1920 is Lancaster 16b the list of royal appointments included " H.I.H Kaiser Wilhelm II " Neatly lined out with three Ink lines. It seems makers were not particular about the label accurately reflecting address etc.

Hugh, I've collected pics of about 90 original Reilly labels and have dated them based on the SN of the guns in the cases, the models of the guns, the medals on the labels. Etc. Actually, I've only found one label with a strike-through, a 1898-03 label with an address change. So I think the Reilly's were pretty fastidious about their labels. Here are examples:

1848-1855 labels with 502 Oxford St., likely the site of their finishing facilities:


1855/6-1959 with the Crystal Palace and Paris medals.


Here are the medals: Left is 1851 Crystal Palace; Right is 1855 Paris


Here is thn only strike-through I've found - the address 277 changed to 295 made shortly after 1903 during the rapid decline of Reilly as a company:

Well my eye did deceive me....that label is an 1855-59 Label in all its details except
1) no "fusils a Bascule" above the name
2) it has Gun Maker below the name not beside it, and
3) most important it is "EM REILLY & Co" not just "REILLY." That would make the label very late 1858, early 1859 after JC Reilly retired, after the company name changed to EM Reilly, before the label changed completely in design, before "Gun Manufacturers" replaced "Gun Maker" and probably before 315 Oxford Street was opened (also in 1859). Amazing!!

That's the first such label I've seen.! Sometimes when you're positive of what you're looking at, your eyes play tricks on you, and you just jump to conclusions. Sorry.

The Case label is laid out so similar to 1855-58 that I don't think it could be an 1863 outlier. Perhaps the case was in storage for a couple of years? Or perhaps the key to the major change in label design in 1859 was not the advent of the EM REILLY name, which began to be used in advertisements and on ribs in 1859, but rather the opening of 315 Oxford Street, which also occurred in 1859 but a few months later.

1) 1855-59; 2) 1859? (label for 12920); 3) generic label 1859-68, and 72-86 with variants

As I said I only have three guns with pre 1887 proof marks from England. The I Hollis & Son muzzle loader, a W Richards, 12 gauge hammer breech loader, undoubtedly made by Clabrough, & a W & C Scott 12 gauge Pin Fire.
All of these only have the gauge stamped once.

Most often the bore size will be increased between the provisional & definitive proofs. Even IF this is not the case it still doesn't explain the decimal point in front of the one marking.

OH Osthaus/Rick,

I'll let the owner know that you have some of the components in case he wants to shoot it. But I suspect not.

Yeah, nice gun and thanks all you guys for adding to the conversation. The owner will be monitoring this thread and I'm sure he wants to thank you too.

And I believe the gun may be for sale.

Jolly

Bill, per above Reilly rarely seemed to engrave fauna on his guns; he was know for foliate scroll and his engraving seemed always in good taste. I've kept photos of about 230 Reillys which have appeared in print or on the internet over the past 20 years. I've found four with fauna engraved on them (counting 12920) - I would bet this type of engraving was an option in the Reilly catalog up to the early 1870's (not the similar borders on the engraved guns 8052, 12920 and XXXXX).

8052: This is one of the last JC Reilly guns probably 1858; it has Veni Vidi Vici engraved on it which may have been JC's swan song:


Your friend's 12920 (1863)


15272 - Spring 1868 shortly after the opening of 2 Rue Scribe


SN unknown but with rue Scribe, and Paris medals on the label (1868-1871) (is that a rabbit with antlers?

Veni Vidi Vici

I Came, I Saw, I Conquered. Generally ascribed to Julius Caesar.

I am a descendant of JC Reilly and Edward Michael Reilly, they are my 3x great-grandfather and 2x great grandfather, respectively. My name is Sally Reilly.

I have very much enjoyed looking through the information that has been posted about the business, in particular, all the photos of the guns and labels.

I have a a bit of information I can add to what you have already, more about the family that the actual guns.

His granddaughter Martha Stephens explained why he came over to England in a book she wrote about her father, She wrote that he was the son of a Squire who was sent to England to study and become a barrister. She explained, “This was because Roman Catholics were not allowed in Ireland to enter any profession and there was no other course for him to be duly qualified” I assume he came over between 1805 and 1812. (I have no information about the family in Ireland)

The first record I have found for JC Reilly was his marriage to Martha Barkley, at St Andrews Holborn, on 17 May 1812. They went on to have four children, Ann b. 7th Mar 1813, Ellen or Elinor b. 30 March 1815, Edward Michael Reilly, b. 1 Sept 1817 and Charles Joseph Reilly, b. 4 July 1819. (Source: Documents held at Wiltshire and Swindon Archives).

Anne Reilly married Henry Stephens FRCS, a surgeon and ink manufacturer and they had 7 children, one of whom became an MP, and one of which wrote a booklet about her father Henry Stephens in which she refers to her mothers family, the Reilly's. In particular she mentions grandparents JC Reilly and Martha, and her Aunt Ellen. She described the marriage of Joseph and Martha as ‘It was a most unfortunate union for her’. We can assume this was partly due to the character of Joseph Charles Reilly as she wrote “Joseph Charles Reilly was selfish, harsh, (and) neglectful of everything but his own comfort. No one had a good word to say of him.”

Ellen never married, and spent quite a bit of time in Paris, France.

Edward Michael Reilly went into the gun making business, as you are already aware.

Charles Joseph Reilly, I believe spent some time in New York as an Agent for Stephens Ink, I have very little other information about him.

Joseph Charles Reilly’s business was obviously successful, as in 1824 whilst still living at 12 Middle Row, he bought a property called Bourne End Farm (now called Hill Green), in Cranfield, Bedfordshire for £1625.

The 1841 Census, recorded Joseph Reilly, aged 61, a Gunmaker, born in Ireland living in Holborn. Also living in the same household was Martha Reilly, aged 54, Elinor, aged 26, both born in the same county, Middlesex and Edward Reilly aged 24, a Gunmaker, not born in the same county. There was another member of the household aged 20 years, a female servant, The actual address that Joseph Charles and his family were living at was 12 Middle Row, as this is recorded on other sources, namely directories and electoral registers.

Joseph Charles moved to 502 Oxford Street, Bloomsbury, Finsbury in 1848, he held a tenancy agreement on this address from 1848 to 1860 onwards. In 1881 this was renumbered 16 New Oxford Street. This was the address he was living at on the night of the 1851 census. He claimed to be a widower. (We know this is not true, as his wife Martha was found to be living with their daughter Anne Stephens.) His occupation was Gunmaker and his birth place was recorded as Granard, Ireland. Also living with him was a servant. I think Joseph and Martha were estranged.

He moved again in 1859, taking out another tenancy agreement on 315 Oxford Street, which backed onto Salvation Army Hall.

The 1861 Census, recorded Joseph Charles Reilly, aged 73, living at Bourn End, Cranfield as head of the household. Again he claims to be a widower, which this time is correct. (We know that Martha Reilly nee Barkley died in November 1960.) His occupation was recorded as Fund holder and Land Proprietor and his birth place as Ireland, Bonin. (Not been able to find out where this is it does not seem to exist) Living with him was a young, unmarried housekeeper, aged 23, called Elizabeth May from Buckinghamshire.

Joseph Charles Reilly died on 11th January 1864, aged 79 at Cranfield, Bedfordshire. According to his death record he died of ‘decay of nature’, old age. Susanna Hailey was present at the death and left her mark, suggesting she was illiterate. It is likely that she was his house-keeper.

Joseph Charles was buried in the Graveyard of the Parish Church in Cranfield, Church of St Peter & Paul. He requested in his will that he wanted to be buried in 'in a plain manner and that a decent stone be placed at the head of my grave with the inscription "Joseph Charles Reilly formerly Gun Maker London”.'

I have more information about E M Reilly that I will post another day!

Sally

Sally, Thanks; see above line on Reilly, Chronology, serial numbers, etc. for response. Gene