Could use some help. I traded a Beretta O/U for a damascus barreled lever lock 16 hammer gun with back action locks and modest engraving. This doesn't thin the herd, but does bring in some more interesting stock!

My questions are:
Has anyone any knowledge of a P Werlig in Ferlach?
What is the DOB? Quite hard to read! Is the *9840 the serial No.?
What would be the damascus pattern?
[img:left]http://20171123_084115[/img]

[img:left]http://20171123_083400[/img]


Hope the pictures work, things like this get pretty cryptic for 72 year olds!

Thanks for any insights!

Welder

Well, they didn't! Guess I need some help!

Welder

What were you using to send your picture?

You must use a picture hosting service like

www.hunt101.com

or other

Mike

Another try! (With some tutoring from Mike!)






Appreciate any insights anyone has! Watertable markings are very blurred - either the Austrians made more guns than we know, or so few that they felt no need to harden them!

Welder

Right off, I don't recognize Büchsenmacher P. Werlig in Österreich, buy maybe Jani will chime in.... But from the marks I can read & if it does not wear a preliminary datastring on the lower rib, I'd hazard a guess the Jones Underlever platform experienced proof between 1891 & 1897. Better image of the chalked marks & water-table might net you some info?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The barrels are 2 Iron Damas Crolle.
Love the rib pattern embellishment, which would be spectacular refinished in "black & white" as were many Ferlach barrels
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20069190

Ferlacher Waffenfabriksgesellschaft Peter Wernig, Ferlach, Kärnten

What about this cat? Moose Snoot of Sweden was kind enough to forward an advert of his to me.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Again some lovely tid-bits of info unearthed by Moose Snoot of Sweden:


Peter Wernig hung out his gun making shingle in the early 1870s(either 1873 or 1871 - or somewhere in between) and he paid for & attained the rank/title or became kaiserlich und königlich and / or Hoflieferant/Hof-Waffenfabrikant in early November 1898. This hat allowed him to provide Emperor Menelik of Abyssinia a Vierlaufgewehre, system Wernig, which more than likely was based on his Vierlaufgewehr patent of 1884?

Then in mid 1907 he or his heirs either sold the business or let it slip into receivership(Laibacher Bankverein or Kreditbank????) and the business was rebadged as a GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung). I see to recall Jani noting that the Ferlach mechanics were originally from either Czech or an area of Slovenia. But evidently it was bad press in 1907/1908 to sell to a Slovenian business so his royal title was stripped??? Peter Wernig appeared to want to shed his German Hunting Coat(possibly a metaphor??) and was worried that an influx of Slovenia mechanics would siphon off Ferlacher jobs?(Jani put us on the straight & narrow here). The rebranded name looks to have been: – “Prva levroska orozno tevarniska druzba Peter Wernig druzba samejenozavezo Borovlje – Korosko” with the German equivalent being "Erste Ferlacher Waffenfabrik Peter Wernig k.u.k. Hoflieferant in Ferlach, GmbH” with the the k.u.k. Hoflieferant title dropping off the adverts in 1908.

More to come I'm sure.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That's interesting, please thank Moose Snoot! It's amazing what info and knowledge this site has or can come up with.

Welder

Peter Wernig was one of the largest Ferlach gunmakers before WWI. He started at age 18 as a barrel forger. By 1867 he sold his first batch of complete guns. By late 1800s he had some 50 men working for him. In 1907 he sold his business to a group of Slovenian investors who organized a limited company but he remained a stock holder. He died just after WWI. This is only a short extraction from the chapter on him in my new book manuscript.
If you carefuly dechipher the numbers (with all the points) on the gun the year of production or rather proofing should show up. Is the gun marked WP by any chance?
With kind regards,
Jani

Compliments of Raimey and or Jani

Wernig Peter Fegyvergyara - Jani for sure. Thanks Mr. Hallquist for the effort. I guess Peter Wernig was the Novotny of Ferlach?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Darly and Raimey. This is the back page of Peter Wernig catalog for the Hungarian market; he sold a lot of his guns there. Most of Peter's wares were "cheap" guns for the avarage man so I wouldn't compare him to Novotny. But he also made some deluxe guns of course. He advertised his four barreled gun extensively but they are almost nonexistant today.
BTW this original catalog is offered for sale in Hungary for 300 euros; I think I will pass
With kind regards,
Jani

Gentlemen, attached are about as good as I can get of the markings on the barrels. There are certainly precious few of them. There are no markings on the lower rib nor receiver as it's contoured to fit the barrels.

Montenegrin, there is no WP on the gun and would doubt it would be stamped inside the locks. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'points'. Would the " *9640. " be the serial number and would it give an indication of DOB?

The info thus far received has been most interesting, and it would appear that Peter Wernig was a good mechanic but a bad businessman!

Many thanks to all for your insights!

Welder

Yes I think 9640 is serial number. There is a "point" after it, to answer your question. I don't know about the Wernig numbers, his guns are not common today so comparison is not easy, and neither are conclusions.
15.? is bore measurment in mm. The two marks on the barrels in picture 3 seem to be proof marks. The upper seems to be Carinthian coat of arms and the lower the Eagle; a detailed macro photo of the eagle showing more detail should narrow the period of proof. I can't see the EF monogram which is for preliminary proof.
As for the WP stamp, I saw it under one Wernig barrel.
I am looking forward for more Peter Wernig guns to surface in the future - and other early Ferlach guns as well...
Cheers,
Jani

Have a macro lens coming today!

Great!

Cheers,
Jani

Hello! Os this gun from the same maker? Can you say, was it made before 1890? Cape gun..Can you help me with identification please? Looks like Jones action, Belgium, Pieper? But proof marks looks Austrian, Ferlach.. Do not have any idea about numbers-*2856, A46665.? Letter J on the hinge. No any other signatures on the gun. Left barrel is damascus 16/65 and right one is some 11,65mm - I slugged it, its 11,70/11,98mm, rim is .614, 15,59mm, base of the chamber .551, 14mm rifling starts at 65mm, lenght of the case cca 52mm. Some kind of shortened 450bpe(11,65x82r) Can you say when was it made by those marks, action, caliber? Barrels are 73cm long, its weights 3,2kg.very gentle fine engraving. Locks are a bit mangled, still holding it in place.Wallhanger for now, could be bring back to life after some tightenning and TLC. What do you think? Thank you 👋

There looks to be a datastring in the red paint & if so, that would date it post 1897. More than likely you are going to have to >>chalk<< the marks in order to bring them out for viewing.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

The proofs seem to be of the earlier kind, 1882-1891; Ferlach, to be sure.

A true Jones underlever would have a stronger T bolting; this is a simpler one, a derivative of the old Lefaucheux type.

Cheers,
Jani

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=626222#Post626222

Thank you! Its *2856. 16. 2 Is there gunmakers code?

I would like to be sure if its been made before 1890, or not. After 1890 it needs to be registered by police. So I would like to know what to do with it. Is it possible that older, made pre 1890 been later proofed at proofhouse and those EF posz 1891 markings added? Thank you.

>>2856.16"2<< is the preliminary datastring. No, it was a one pass with the preliminary datastring with worked tube diameters @ 16.2mm.

As I said, if you would chalk the preliminary datastring, we may be able to provide an assessment.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey: Great to see your posts again!!!

Its very close style, curves to the gun above in this thread.

Just different fore end, older?

Raimey, thank you! Im comming here a lot, to learn new things from you guys. You all making this place a Goldmine! Well done!

Glad to be of the slightest assistance.



I think this to be the preliminary datastring on the 1st pass....



I think this to be the final datastring for the final pass..... I cannot accurately read the diameter though; 16.8mm??

Too, I will have to default to Jani for the date range..... My guess is early 1890s....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thank you. I thought its 10.8 maybe? But that rifle barrel is 11,70mm bore. What that letter A means? It doesnt look like full datastring as it should be after 1891,weird.

Yes, it very well could be 10.8mm.....

I am trying to remember what the A denotes; maybe an extra barrel set? Not sure yet.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Does the 10.8mm hammer have a French single set trigger?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

what might be the actual diameter of the shot tube?

If both of those datastrings are for the final pass, then there should be a preliminary datasting on the lower rib?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I thought that 16.2 is diametet/choke for shotgun tube, but I just measured at the muzzle its more like 16,8mm.So its a datastring number or gunmakers code? By pushing forward first trigger I can set the trigger for very light pull.

So that 10.8 or whatever it is could be part of datastring..

Preliminary Datastring....



Final pass Datastring....

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rds=ferlacher&Search=true#Post642233

I carry & shoot a Ferlach Biksarica(Biks) almost every day but in either 8X57R/360 or or the 24 bore X 500 Express above..... I just checked several Ferlacher hahn guns & >>16.0<< & >>16.2<< are very common on the final pass for a bore diameter.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Very nice! So yours went as 1956th gun through proofhouse at 1911? How to read those numbers on mine? Or how they wrote it before 1900 or in beginning?

Perfekt on the final datastring.... From memory from the above preliminary datastring on the lower rib, it passed thru the Ferlach Proof Facility in 1910....

Acquiring a data from a datastring wasn't possible until I believe it was 1897? I'd have to verify that or Jani might?

But the Biks of which you are a custodian doesn't have the date as I see it so, it would either be prior or during 1891??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yes, its very confusing indeed. Different style, composition, way of marking of datastrings can suggest different time period.. Cant find anything on it, but my german is non existing..

I found another letter on the gun, W and spme other mark, maybe 4 or A or H.

Maybe assembly numbers? I will have to look, but that bump on the forend is typically seen on German wares...... I will have to check a bit....

Some aside info on the Ferlach mechanics and Josef Winkler that I stumbled across & thought might need to be resurrected:

The guilds kept a heavy thumb on the pyramid of craftsmen in that there were few master mechanics & many, many more apprentices, journeymen & skilled mechanics. Having a bias that the name atop the tubes of a sporting weapon is not the actual maker is generally a good stance, but it is possible with bespoken sporting weapons makers like the smaller ones in Ferlach that they played some part in the overall construction of the sporting weapons bearing their name. The larger concerns would source components and efforts from other gunmaking centers like Liege & Suhl/Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis in order to fill orders. I am not certain if Josef Winkler was a member of the Consortium or not but I am confident that he at a minimum sourced components and possibly some effort from the Consortium. A guess was that he had say 3 mechanics and possibly double that number of apprentices & journeyman and rolled out quality examples. Ferlach craftsmen are some of the best tube tuners around & their proximity to the local forest/shooting grounds provides an excellent opportunity to equip upper rung hunters with their whims.

Digging deeper in the sand pile of Ferlach gunmaking as the sand piles in on you, it appears highly probable that 2 gunmaking brothers Schaschl departed Liege to establish a dynasty of gunmaking in Ferlach in the late 1500s. Their families may have originated in Maastricht, Holland or mechanics from Maastricht, Holland were recruited. Premier Ferlach tube maker John Schaschl gives origins as far back as circa 1650 and has to be one of the descendants of the Brothers Schaschl, who would have provided a workshop for subsequent Ferlach mechanics to study and pass thru. Seems there is quite a story here also.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too the Austrian & Bohemian hunters held with old tried & true hammer platforms, just about as bad as the French, well into the hammerless realm.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Back to the topic of discussion, might you take a glass or loupe and scan down the lower rib out past the forend iron? There should be a preliminary datastring....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I cleaned it up, cant see anything. But I cleaned top rib as well and there is some sign of maker or retailer, need to cleaning out more, cant read it yet. Hopefully in the afternoon Ill find out more.

You know, the diameter & length sounds like a 45-90 WCF but I have not checked the base or rim dimensions for comparision.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Well, a neck downed, shortened version of the 50-110 WCF may have closer dimensions. Length of the 50-110 is given as 61mm and an overall length of 70mm. Other dims are quite close....

14mm Base
15.4mm Rim



The 50-110 WCF is given as a 13mm X 61R(mm). So something like a 45-110 or 11.6 X 52R, whatever that might be...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

50-110 Brass looks to be a buck & 1/4 a copy. So, if you could manage to get a few & trim them to length, neck them down of 11.7mm and fireform them, you just might have a solution.....

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

I had pondered on the 43 Egyptian or the 11X52R Beaumont M71/78(11.6mm) cartridge but the dims of those cartridges are not close?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I cleaned the gun for more marks, nothing more on the barrels, at the top rib it was just damascus.
Thank you, that rifle caliber, i can put 45-70 brass in, its almost perfect at the rim, just fine, case in the chamber is a bit loose,.459 500gr powder coated bullet should work, I cant push it from the muzzle, its stucked half way in. I think would be possible fireform brass and use 459 or 462 governments bullets.

Hum, Ok......, 45-70.... I didn't even consider that. Pleasure us with an image after you fire-form some brass.

https://naboje.org/en/taxonomy/term/19

Pretty neat cartridge website that I used to load a 400 Express:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=10mm&Search=true#Post569912

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

To welder !
There is a book on Ferlach gunmakers ISBN 978-3-7084-0612-1 by Renate Jernej from 2018.
It has 3 pages on the family-saga of Peter Wernig. No info on any cartridge questions raised here.
If you can not get hold of the book I offer to send you a copy of the 3 pages .
If you let me know your name and address via the pm-feature I will mail it you or
if you want to stay anonymous to your next gundealer.
..
Weidmannsheil
F.N.