Another thread here (very interesting) on preserve shooting etc shows that there seem to be two camps in the minds of many posters - Shooters and Hunters.

The latter gain most pleasure from the hunt and the dog work and the shot is a bonus.

The former get their challenge from testing themselves against difficult, fast birds and enjoy the dogs, the hunt, the guns and the social side as a bonus.

As with much in life, there is crossover. some 'Hunters' like the occasional day being challenged by a good number of difficult birds and some 'Shooters' sppreciate the odd day away from the formal shoting set-up; perhaps ferreting, foreshore wildfowling, or shooting over dogs on a bit of rough scrub-land in anticipation of the odd rabbit, pheasant or pigeon.

If I examine my own shooting life I admit to enjoying both. Testing your nerve against large numbers of wind-blown partridges coming off a hill in a gale, trying to pick your bird, swing, connect, re-load repeat before it is all over is a rush that stays with you - even when you fail in spectacular fashion!

Waiting on an inland flooded gravel pit in anticipation of the arrival of malard, teal, widgeon and perhaps even a skein of Canada geese is a meditative experience all of its own. You may get a shot, you may get a flurry of shooting, you may just smoke acigar and watch the sky get red, then black.

Decoying wood pigeon presents really wild birds, coaxed into shot with care and skill - and each time you shoot a bird it will be from a different angle and speed from the last.

Stalking rabbits of a summer evening with a .22 rim-fire is pure joy - warm breeze, long shadows and bunnies feeding.

Hunting pheasants and partridges over dogs - deep ditches, tall hedges - maybe a woodcock, the staple of English shooting.

For me it must be Sporting, it must be challenging and it must have an element of unpredictability and the possibility of failure.

I just came back from my fifth hunt in Italy (Umbria) after wild boar - my companion got a right and left with a solid slug loaded Beretta 20 bore. He was ecstatic.

I saw neither hide nor hair of living porker for the fifth year running - I had a wonderful day all the same.

I love it all but to be totally honest, I want to be in a position to try my old guns and my (lack of ?) skill with them on testing quarry. Otherwise, it is not shooting, it is walking the dog.

- but what are you? Hunters or Shooters?

just curoius, were you near Marchiano (sp?), -- Villa Emma? I stayed there and there was a boar hunting ground adjacent. Much yelling, dove calling and dogs involved -- it was great.

I'm a hunter that uses a gun. I've done both the driven and the rough shooting. To tell you the truth driven doesn't do it for me. Yes the birds are usually quite hard to hit but, I was raised poor and to have someone else do all the hard work of moving the birds just doesn't sit right with me. I hope others enjoy it, it's just not for me. When it's time to sit down at the table I enjoy the meal much more when I feel that I have worked for my game.

PJ

I was up near Folignio in some little village. my girlfriend's cousin took me out with alocal boar hunting club called 'Porki's'!

They are a real farmer's outfit - most of them are about 5ft tall and their dogs are sewn up with string.

Wonderfully hospitable, very odd, barely organised, beautiful scenery and a real experience. It has become an annual event for me.

I'm hoping my luck in seeing a piggy coincides with my next visit when I want to take that 1897 hammer Paradox I mentioned earlier over there.

Well, for sure, I'm a hunter, but I'm also a shooter to some extent and enjoy competitive shooting as well.

Yes, there are hunters and shooters and hybrids - there are also killers and I think they are becoming the predominant morphotype in big game "hunting"

Brent

Hunter/Collector. I enjoy the hunt and the guns, the guns more than a straight shooter.

I just came back from a weekend in southern VT where I did 2 days of waterfowl in the early morning followed by woodcock and grouse after that.

I loved it all, waiting in the boat with the dog for the ducks to come in, fighting the upland underbrush, the points, the shots and even the bird plucking.

While doing it all I enjoyed contemplating the two guns I brought, each chosen for a specific task. I admired the work and balance of the Chas. Hellis 2" 12 bore that I carried for the afternoon hunts and I wondered about the upgraded Stevens 5000 that was knocking around the boat with me in the morning. Who went through the expense of adding upgraded wood, ivory beads and a Red Head pad on this gun? It all made for a great weekend.

On the other hand my guide had just gotten his Beretta 686 back from the Beretta shop in MD and while doing a repair they must have put the forend in a vise and really crunched the wood. He didn't seem upset, said the gun was working well and that's all that mattered. Hunter.

Brent, I also have problems with the "killers". My opinion on the subject is that very very few people who grew up hunting fit in the "killer" category. To me most of them seem to be people that are new to hunting and/or just want to get something from it that most hunter don't want or need. i.e. their name in the "book", to fit in with a crowd that they just have to be in, or they were introduced to hunting incorrectly. Some of these can be fixed, unfortunately some can't.

Dig,

Excellent post. I'm with you. I enjoy each type of shooting on its merits. The challenges are different but they can be very enjoyable in their own way. I have done very little driven shooting or preserve shooting, but what I have done has been fun and I would do it again

I followed the preserve vs. wild thread with interest. In a way, it reminded me of the "collector" vs. "shooter" thread from a year or so ago. In that thread, many viewed the the collector with some disdain (much like the preserve shooter). No one wanted to be tagged with the "collector" badge. Poster afeter poster attested how they were shooters, by God, and wouldn't own a gun just to have it just for the sake of owning it (and/or shooting it rarely.) Of course the reality that a lot of us the board have several more guns than we could reasonably argue we needed from a pure practicality standpoint did not figure prominently in the thread. (I know, I know, having a separate back-up, wet-weather loaner gun in 16 gauge choked for late season pheasant is purely a practical consideration, or so I tell my wife).

I'm rambling here, but my point is - 'to each his own.' It is a lot easier to look down on an occasional preserve shoot when you can step out your back porch and chase roosters. It is another to be somewhere you can't easily do that. Ditto for some of the hunting methods in other parts of the country or world. I think we need to be careful in how we view tradtions in other part of the world just because they are not the ones we grew up with.

Good shooting,
Ken

Hunter or shooter?

Like most of us a bit of both, though for me the accent is towards the hunter. If I was forced to give up all of it bar one, that one would be coastal 'fowling for geese. Flighting woodpigeon would be last but one.

I do enjoy a driven day, but it's very expensive so I have to limit myself. The shooting can be great fun but I take most pleasure in the social occasion...the "tradition".

Finally; I'm dog obsessed. I get real joy out of working my Labs and Springers.

The mix this season will be.....
2 days driven
3 days wildfowling
Probably 20 days flighting pigeon
Some (?) moonflighting duck.
And wait for it...38 days booked with the dogs, and a lot more to come.

Eug

DIG

It is often said that there are really three categories of sportsmen in the field...

Hunters

Shooters

Dog men

As we move through life, we may move from one category to another. I am certain that I have moved through at least two of these categories myself.

I have given up big game hunting and most waterfowling to spend 60 to 90 days a year after upland birds with my setters. I travel thousands of miles every year and shoot as many as eight species of birds over my dogs.

I guess that I could be labeled a 'Dog Man'.

I always considered myself a bird hunter first, shooter second. Clay target games were always a mean to an end - making me a better wingshot. But I have to concede that hunting really is mainly an excuse to go play in the woods with a dog or two.

And to paraphrase Haig-Brown, if it's just an excuse, I'm glad I thought of it.

Both.

I grew up as a hunter, like most poor country kids in that time and place. I could not afford to shoot, nor did I know anyone who could. One was expected to produce food if shells were expended. As my career progressed and my kids became more and more expensive with cars, tuition, weddings, etc, I worked a lot of 80 hour weeks. Time to keep and train dogs, to hunt extensively, etc, became hard to find. Strictly as a form of mental masturbation (weak substitute for hunting and dogs), initially, I took up competitive shooting. I shot competitively for about 25 years and that eventually transformed from mere mental masturbation to an end in itself. My wife and I went all over the place in our motorhome attending shoots. During that time, I was fortunate in my career, so I could afford to shoot quite a bit.

At age 50, I looked around to realize that my kids were married; that my land and other things were all paid for; and that my business was well-established and no longer needed my constant attention. So, I got back into being a dogman/hunter – even took a job as a guide which we do a day or so a week when the dogs and I are not out hunting wild birds. I’m 60 now – have been doing this for 10 years. We get to do a good bit of bird hunting. For example, the dogs and I just returned from spending three full weeks camping in the Nebraska Sandhills and hunting greater prairie chickens and sharptails in the early season. See pics:









We’ll chase local ruffed grouse this weekend; then phez open next weekend. Newfoundland ptarmigan are next on my motorhome trip list. We hunt hard seven months out of the year – when all the wild bird seasons are over, we hunt pen-raised birds at my hunting club. Mostly, I enjoy my dogs and hunt for my dogs – if I didn’t have dogs, I wouldn’t bother to hunt.

As part of that mid-life epiphany, I gave up serious competitive shooting. I was in stuck AA and AAA classes and quitting was like stopping beating my head against a wall – didn’t realize how much better I felt until after I quit. I still shoot a lot, but only little local SC and skeet shots and the occasional box bird. Shooting still is an end in itself for me, plus it helps me maintain my wingshooting skills. However, now the competition is just with myself and maybe a few friends and I don’t get all upset if I miss a target now and then. I wouldn’t hunt if I didn’t have dogs, but I would still shoot.

I’m lucky enough to own some “fine” guns – both target and field. They are all used extensively – I am not a collector. I figure their makers intended them to be used and I know that I can’t take them with me when I’m gone, so why not?

Five dimensions to Shooter's profile.

I'll add a 4th dimension. 4th = Guns. I've finally come to understand that for me it is really about the guns.

Further, shooting needs to be broken down into "for fun" and "for score/competition."

See chart above - got the post order backwards.

This is the kind of thing engineers do when they wind up with a few minutes between meetings.

Hey! I believe I've shot over Greg's dogs... Flying Feather sound familiar? Keenan... McClure... Same Greg???

Russ here from Michigan. I seem to recall some simply outstanding Brittanys...

I must confess that I have worked more than one dog while I left the gun in the truck. Truth is the dog and I both had about as good a time and the birds faired much better.

If I have to hear a gun go off and see birds die I can always go shoot a few rounds of skeet, sporting clays or trap.

If I want to be humble I go shoot a few teal or try pass shooting dove with a 30 mile per hour tail wind.

If I want to get serious about duck hunting I call up my old hunting partner who eats, sleep and dreams duck hunting at the least 50 weeks a year. Some of the rough hunts we have been on would make you wonder how or why we bothered to get an education. This is the same fellow who tied flies to look like fish food pellets so he could catch more released trout to re-release. Correctly pointed out that the trout though of pellets as normal food and bugs as snacks.

Rocketman:

I supouse that the engeneering mentioned is from Chrysler....

Regards,

Jose

You're not living if you're not having fun---that means hunting birds with a dog for me; the clays are subordinate as tune-ups. As for the glories of nature, I live in the woods: great pines, black, white and red spruce, deciduous maples, beech and birch, ponds, lake, harbour and bay accessible from front or back door, 500 metres from the nearest road.

I find two aspects of the sport most interesting. First, I grew up prowling the woods by myself and learned there is nothing more tranquil than sitting against a tree, gun in hand, watching daybreak in anticipation of seeing game. Can't explain it, just know when I am doing that the rest of the world and it's problems are fully dimished and I feel great. I don't need to shoot game, just need to have the possibility to dial in the right sensitivity to the woods around me. The other thing I enjoy is upland hunting with a few select friends and my dog. Again no need to shoot much, just enough to satisfy the dog's work. Shooting clays or skeet is just a tune up for hunting.

Hunting vs Shooting. Here's a little different perspective for you. I grew up in Oregon, started hunting at 9 or 10 yrs old. 80% of my hunting from about that age till about age 31 was deer. In western Oregon you hunt huge clearcuts over pretty rough terrain. You are constantly moving, up and down ridges and valleys pushing bedded deer into the open. Almost all shots were running deer at between 100 and 200 yards. We sighted our guns in at 220 yds. Fast forward, I move to Texas and then Florida. Started a family, moved a lot in construction management. As I only get to shoot at the preserves so hotly discussed lately I think I can relate to the guys who disdain preserve hunting because I feel the same way about deer hunting in the southern states (generally speaking). At age 54 now I have no interest in sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to walk by below and then shoot it. Nor do I have the urge to shoot a deer standing at a salt lick. No offense meant to anyone who hunts this way, it's a product of living in country that is mostly dense underbrush, I just have no interest.
Rather than not get to shoot the old doubles I've taken an interest in since receiving my 1st Parker I will shoot on preserves when my employer invites me along several times a year (free!) but no southern deer "hunting" (read shooting) for me.

I use my hunting skills to spend time relaxing in the field with good dogs,good guns,and good friends.

I use my shooting skills to take money from these friends in the offseason.

I'm mostly a clay shooter. I can shoot clays any time of the year without a license or the hassel of having to travel somewhere. I have been known to chase black birds from my fields after seeding from time to time.

The only kind of "hunting" per se that I do on a regular basis is kill ground hogs in my hay and oat fields so my tractor and implements do not get damagesd or tip from the holes, or one of my wife's horese does not accidentally step into a hole.

Sometimes I have to remember what tree I leaned my gun, or rifle on. I hunt only my place, or sometimes my brother's and am a little guarded in what I shoot these days. I target shoot with a Kimber 22, or clays with my guns.
Durning the seasons, I'll only shoot very little game.
But!
Its the land, Labs, guns/rifles(a nice Irish shooting sweater too)
May get into collecting somewhere down the road?

Dig -
Some of what I post here is included in a manuscript I submitted to DGJ last year. Since it was an unsolicited piece, I may never see it in print. In essence, I recounted my return to guns and hunting after a 38 year hiatus. I gave up both near the age of twenty, for reasons that are not entirely clear to me even now, but seemed imperative enough then. About three years ago I found a double gun that I wanted to own. When it became mine, It seemed obvious I should shoot it. Why else own the gun? It took a friend who was a grouse hunter to persuade me to go walk up edges and aspens -- and persuade is the correct word. However, one hunt turned into a virus I've been unable to shake and has colored all the weeks of my life over the last three years. Part of it, I'm sure, is the rush of memories that flooded my consciousness of the boyhood hunting with my Father and our dog. The subtle things that trigger responses -- the psychic power of carrying a gun; the smells of October woods and brilliant days; the overwhelming beauty of a grouse or cock pheasant; the symmetry of a fine gun; hell, even the color and texture of shotshells. The list is endless.
Your post has brought into sharp focus some of the things I've given a good deal of thought to over the last year. I have more guns now, a couple of fine ones. But I find I'm not a collector. I've been introduced to both trap and skeet -- by a couple of friends on this BBS -- who also introduced me to preserve hunting last year. But I'm not a competitive shooter though I thoroughly enjoy the clays. I'm also not moved in any deeper sense by preserve shooting though it was an enjoyable outing and I may well do it again. As for wild hunting (grouse and woodcock) I remain ambivalent to this extent: There is no catch and release with a shotgun. There is only one degree of dead. George Bird Evans describes this much better than I could hope to do and it essentially comes down to "moment of regret". I find I cannot kill what I would not eat, so I'm grateful that both grouse and woodcock are high on my culinary short list. So where does this ramble leave me? I don't know that I'll ever have a clear and cogent answer. I do know this: I respond in nearly equal measure to double guns, shooting double guns and hunting with double guns.
The best of collecting, shooting and hunting to all the brethren on this board.
Will S.

Fired 10x50 boxes of .45ACP in < 2 weeks, I'm definitely a noisemaker. I hate my fugly, toolish H&K, so I added classic looking Smith & Wesson .357Mag 6-shooter to my collection.
I prefer to rent dogs for days worth of upland gunning, don't have time for "chain and an anchor". Luv dogs, but not in my house, I like to travel a lot.

I'm primarily a hunter who shoots to improve his game in the field and any real hunter knows all hunting is better with mans best friend.

As far as the killing goes...Ortega Y Gasset said it best in his book titled 'Meditations on Hunting': "One does not hunt in order to kill, one kills in order to have hunted".

Gasset should be required reading for all Peta/Anti-Hunters members then maybe they would understand us.
L.F.

Our friend, the Wise man, once shared a bit of drill with me. He told me how he imagines hunting sea ducks and Brant from a sink box when he is confronted with the boredom and the concern that accompanies a hospital room. That, sink box hunting and sea ducks, is something that has intrigued me ... forever. I have not a clue if it is the heavy iron deeks weighting down the box's wings or the vision of a flight of Canvasbacks or Redheads or smallish Buffleheads coming in for a better look/see, but whateveritis, it is a mental magic that has a very strong draw. In fact, that is as close as I will ever come to hunting from a sink box .. sharing Bill's vision that he sometimes uses to avoid focus on the mundane. Thank God for the friends that we have, and this one ... Bill .. will be rejoining us again soon. You can take that to the bank.

I'm tempted to get an arm patch made that simple says ..

DOGS
PEOPLE
GUNS

But it would never be remotely understood by the aimless masses. A real pity, that.

Yeah, it's peripherial to Dig's posit/question, but WTH, its still a part of the deal. I'm personally downright tickled to associate with any of you gentlemen, and ladies, and I am forever learning. Can't thank you enough in the collective, for the honest thots, shared experiences, and the dialoue.

Kind regards, tw

edit: corrections for poor typing, and stuff

tw, our wooden sink boxes were ballasted by large smooth beach rocks under our feet. There were tollers on the wing boards and tollers strung from the wings. Sink boxes now are made of heavy fibreglass and if you've still got a hankering for it there's a guiding outfit in the harbour next to the one where I grew up on the province's Eastern Shore. There's no gunning like it in the world, lifting and falling on grey swells, at times eye-level with the birds, your chin at water-level, your body in a flat-topped pyramid encased in the sea.

I'd like to add my concurrence regarding the difference between hunting and shooting:
Bird hunting with my dog puts me into a wonderful mental state, completely engaged in the here and now, with all of my senses turned (back) on and focused...plus interacting with the dog, our ancient hunting partner, is a special thing. I totally escape from modern life in the first hour of hunting, in contrast to a typical vacation I may not unwind for 3 or 4 days.

Guns and shooting, my favorite common pastimes, don't do that for me.

1-dog man
2-gun man
3-outdoorsman
4-hunter
have not hunted anything but birds in years, have no desire to hunt anything a dog cant point....

Greg, Great post, excellent photos, what is the hammergun in the first photo. Randy

Great thread.

I've went though the "shooting for score" phase that was accompanied by collecting guns. I was up to 15 guns and a lot of money. Have sold 4 and have 3 more on the market. Only two of the remaining guns are "nice" and one of those will go when I get one of the Fox Guns I have on order.

Have 2 Fox guns on order and have an unfired RBL that I'm not sure what to do with. One of the Fox guns is a 20Ga and that makes the RBL redundant.

My main joy is watching my young Boykin develop hunting skills. Shooting birds is fun, but it's mostly to give her something to retrieve.

Shooting clay targets is fun, but it is an excuse to be with friends and play with my guns.

Perhaps I am more dense and less sophisticated that others, or just easier to please, without all the specific differentiations.

I ENJOY IT ALL!

Using the above definitions, i think I'm simultaneously a hunter, shooter, dogman, and semi-collector. I say "semi-collector" as i shoot all of my guns, none remain closet queens.

When I can hunt wild birds I do so, and enjoy out-of-state travel. Before and after the legal bird seasons, I shoot preserve birds, and train my dogs on preserve birds. In the off-season I shoot at lots of clay birds, and even hit some.

Not sure there is any purposeful attraction to adhering to only one of the above catagorizations - seems more enjoyable to participate in all four -- as time, circumstance, and funding permit.

JERRY

Thanks, RMC. My 20 bore field gun is a Bertuzzi hammergun with bolino engraving of my beloved older dog, Maggie by Manrico Torcoli. Here are both of them.

The meat.........I think of both the shooting and the hunting on that day my dog retrieved the delicious, slow roasted canvasback currently on my plate.