Does anyone here have first hand experience with hiring a 'smith to move the point of impact on a fixed choke doublegun's barrels? I have a double that has .008" choke in each barrel, but "cross shoots" .......i.e., the right barrel prints 2/3 of the pattern to the left of the point of aim, and the left barrel prints 2/3 of the pattern to the right of the point of aim. Elevation is perfect on both barrels. It does this at game shooting ranges (20-25 yards, for a .410), and does so with several different loadings. No question, it is the barrels themselves that are not perfectly regulated, and not shooter error. It has been checked on different days under differing lighting conditions with the same results everytime.

How much total choke would you expect to lose in having the muzzle honed to move those patterns enough to center them? More than .002"?

I plan to call Mike Orlen about it tomorrow afternoon, but would like to hear from anyone who has ever had this issue corrected.

SRH

Right barrel w/ RIO 3" game load @ 25 yds.



Left barrel w/ RIO 3" game load @ 25 yds.



Does the same exact thing with 2 3/4", 1/2 oz. loads.

SRH

Stan, no first hand experience but you might talk to Jim Eyster at Heritage Gunsmiths. I remember a George Bird Evans story where he wrote about sending a gun to Ken Eyster to have POI changed. Jim is Ken's son and has taken over the business.

Some will claim they can hone the choke and move impact left or right....I had it done twice with little if any results.

I know that ChuckH did it himself several years ago, and documented the results on this forum, with photographs and a detailed description of the process. But, these bores are chrome lined and I wouldn't get much done in them using the process Chuck used, I'm afraid. I also want Orlen to lengthen the cones in it. Chuck also documented a huge improvement in patterns with the .410 by doing that. Orlen already told me that chrome lined bores are not a problem for him.

SRH

Stan;
Can't help with your problem there. I know that it can be done but to do so one has to "Intentionally" take more out from the side you want the pattern to move toward. If one "Correctly" just opens the choke keeping all in line then shot placement should not be changed.

What I did want to ask about though, was this just a slip up;
"Does the same exact thing with 2 3/4", 1/2 oz. loads."
I wasn't aware there were any 2 3/4" .410 shells, all I have ever seen were either 2½" or 3". Well I have seen a few Very Old 2" ones.

It was a long time ago, but Jim Eyster once told me he could move POI about 2" max by altering the choke, I think.

Reminds me of a shotgun that has compensation for recoil built in.

My experience with having chrome lined barrels ground was so poor, I'd think long and hard about it.
At least you can do the math to get an idea of how much equals how far, for the cost of a pencil.

Briley makes eccentric screw-in chokes to change poi. I have known of some success of a few folks filing screw-ins to move poi, but that involves replaceable, screw-ins, not factory chokes. Gil

My mistake, Miller. i did mean to say 2 1/2" shells. Thanks for catching that.

SRH

I have great confidence in Orlen, but will certainly consult with Eyster if need be. Thanks for mentioning him.

I may end up having to accomplish it with "screw-ins". I know that can be done by the use of the eccentric chokes mentioned by Gil.

Will definitely report on what happens.

SRH

I second Eyster. A couple of months ago in an English sporting magazine a guy talked about having a pair of 28 bore guns made up for shooting high birds. Bought a pair of Perazzi 28 bores with the tightest chokes Perazzi could put in the barrels. Sent it over here to Eyster to regulate.
Went on to say how well he did at getting the barrels to pattern.
Can you tell who the maker was of your 410?

What kind of shotgun is it Stan? Chrome lined suggests recent manufacture. If so, maybe the manufacturer would make it right. Considering you only have .008" of constriction to work with, I seriously doubt if you'd get to where you want to be by laterally honing the chokes, especially in a chrome lined bore.

Nobody mentioned the thought of weighing the cost of eccentric screw in chokes versus the cost of a strip and relay of the ribs, with a slight spreading of the barrels to regulate POI. Yours must be crossing at around 15 yards.

At 15 yards, it will still crossfire, just half as much.

Huh?

It is the Dickinson, with 30" barrels. Funny thing is, I shot doves with it for two seasons before I put up my grease plate and began patterning my guns. I had no trouble taking a limit of doves with it, with pretty fair averages each time ........ well over 50%, but could recall a few shots each time that I couldn't figure out why I missed. Now I know why. There's just not much meat on the "skinny side" of each barrel's pattern.

I really like the gun, disappointed as I am with the regulation. Before anybody kicks Turkish guns too hard, let me point out that my $489 Yildiz S x S .410 is regulated as perfectly as any gun I have ever patterned. And, when you consider that Beretta has an 8" allowance for mis-regulation, there's not much chance of getting this done by Dickinson I wouldn't think. I wish I could get back to the old thread that ChuckH created detailing how much he moved his patterns by honing the muzzle. As I recall, it was significant.

SRH

Don't change a thing Stan. That cross shooting provides you with the built in lead that must be what's resulting in your success with the .410...Geo

Maybe you were just flinching

Maybe a 90 degree cross wind came through from the west just as I touched off the right barrel, then reversed and came through from the east as I shot the left ........ and did the exact same thing several times with different loads. Or, maybe the fact that the barrels are not regulated for the proper distance caused it. I dunno. What's the most likely scenario?

Some more clues. I patterned three .410 doubles that day ........... a Verona O/U, the Dickinson, and the Yildiz. Out of the three I only flinched with the Dickinson. Idinat strange?

SRH

Stan, I think you are likely correct on your POI, but as mentioned, one can easily flinch on a single shot. May I suggest you shoot a 4-5 shot group at your given yardage? That's what Eyster does to establish POI. Look for densest area of the multiple shot group and that's POI.

I do that occasionally, buzz, and it does help when things do not seem to be uniform. But, I shot it enough times to be sure, then numbered and photographed the patterns. Every shot, every time, from the right barrel crossed the point of convergence and patterned left. And, vice versa. EVERY time. I'm aware of the possibility of flinching, and shoot most all my patterns from the sitting position. If I see something with a gun I am concerned about I then shoot the same gun several times offhand, to more closely approximate how we hold a shotgun when shooting at game. I've been patterning shotguns most of my life, but only in the past 6 months or so began using my own grease plate. I previously used a friend's plate about 15 miles away.

BTW, I've never seen a noticeable difference in where the patterns went between offhand shooting and sitting position. It's just that I can hold and squeeze the trigger much better sitting. Squeezing a shotgun trigger is not a normal thing, and I have to "fight" to do it. It took me quite awhile to transition from bullseye pistol and target competition to shotgun competition, and trigger control was a major part of it.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Sure wish Chuck would check in and tell us how much he was able to move the patterns on his gun.

Happy Independence Day! LET FREEDOM RING!!!

SRH

I have been considering a Dickinson or SKB 410 for awhile now. I have always been curious about how they pattern.
I would like to hear how your other guns did.
If you have been having sucess with the gun as you say and have shown us in your pictures I would not have any concern

I cannot accept sub standard performance PALUNC. It will be dealt with or it will go. As much as I like the gun, I intend to expend some time and effort (read $$$) to get it right. The gun is just a little jewel other than the POI problem. And, in the interest of fairness, there are many otherwise fine guns in the hands of shooters and hunters that are not regulated any better than my Dickinson. I am even aware of a Fabbri S x S that belonged to a well known pigeon shooter that got rid of it because it was not regulated to suit him. Dollars don't guarantee perfect regulation.

This very inexpensive Yildiz is perfectly regulated, as I said before.



SRH

If I had a gun that I KNEW shot like yours, I would have "0" confidence in it, and like you, either remedy it or get rid of it. The regulation problem looks like more than 2" by your patterns. I think it would be hard to remedy, and with an inexpensive gun, I would start over and get rid of this one. Just my humble opinion.

It was an $1850 gun, AIR, buzz.

There aren't many options out there for a 30" barreled ejector S x S .410. Thus, the Dickinson. Therefore the reason I am wanting to make it right. Screw-ins will do the job, no doubt. I just didn't particularly want screw chokes in the gun, but ............... it may be either that or nothing.

SRH

Oh......$1850, well that's a different matter. I thought it was much less. Sorry. Well, I'd try to remedy that one too. Good luck there Stan. (PS, sorry if I annoyed you, I was ignorant re the value of the gun).

The pushing of the barrels together can't be but a couple .001's to align the patterns.

It will be fun to see how you accomplish the solution you are happy with.

No, not annoyed at all my friend. Just a bit annoyed that the most important aspect of a doublegusn's ability to be effective at what it was created for is so often neglected.

You know what they say, tho' ........... it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. She ain't even warming' up yet.

There is no such thing as an unsolveable problem ...... if you're willing to work at it hard and long enough.

All my best, SRH

As a side note, boys ............ if you're otherwise happy with your guns, don't build a grease plate. I'll bet my bottom dollar you will find that some of your guns aren't shooting where you are looking, or aren't regulated, or both.

I'm very glad I built mine, however. I don't go by the adage that "ignorance is bliss". I'm not happy until I know why I'm missing.

SRH

Stan, have you talked with the Dickinson importer you worked with to get the 30" barrels to see if they are willing to replace the gun/barrels or help otherwise?
JR

No, John, I haven't, and I probably should. But, the reason I haven't is that, given the huge allowance that most major gun companies have with regulation, I would really be surprised if they agreed to do anything about it. I think it is off roughly 7-8", each barrel. As I mentioned, Beretta won't do anything unless their barrels impact more than 8" off POA. That's ridiculous, but it is what it is.

I may try give them a call soon just for funsies, though, to see what their reply would be. Won't cost me anything but a little time. I guess I will have to call Cabela's, where it came from, to get the number of Dickinson, who I believe is in California.

What would you suggest, Tom, if you read this?

Thanks, SRH

I spoke with a top shotgun barrel man yesterday, at length, about the issue with the Dickinson. He discussed with me his method of moving POI by altering fixed chokes, and agreed to give it his best shot but suggested that I press Dickinson hard to remedy the situation with a new barrel set. He feels that moving the patterns nearly 8" is a very tall order for a .410.

My friend John's suggestion was right on the money, and that will be my next course of action.

All my best, SRH

Good luck Stan. I hope Dickinson helps you! If not, 8" is a lot to remedy at the choke. Might be better to remove ribs, move barrels apart a bit and relay the ribs (since right barrel is shooting 8" left and left barrel is shooting 8" right). In terms of analysis of POI, sometimes I like to shoot at scum on a pond. It helps me analyze where a gun is shooting. Also, if you can smoke low 7's on the skeet field, then the gun is likely shooting where you are looking.

This requires a correction of near 30 MOA per barrel. That's half a degree. The barrels shoot to POI near a full degree of arc apart.

Were we to pivot the barrels, depending on the pivot point, someplace between .1 and .25" of movement per side would be needed.

This is not a minor assembly error.

What we don't know is how the barrel set is assembled, by cold or hot solder, brazing, or what combination where. Only the factory could tell us.

The whole fiasco leads me to the conclusion that the barrels were assembled on a jig, scaled down from a larger gauge gun without any sort of testing whatever. It's highly possible that each and every copy of this model has the exact same issue.

I think you are on to something here, 'Jones.
JR

A recent 'Shooting Sportsman' has a Dickinson review by somebody named Bruce Buck.

It's a remarkable article in many ways. It's easily available online, first pop up on Google search.

The one good takeaway is that the guns supposedly come with a 'lifetime warranty' although the writer did state that as long as a trigger was 'functional' they would not adjust pull weight under warranty. The trigger in question was north of 7 pounds, so one does wonder what 'acceptable' POI might be to this warranty department.

The guns (two 28 gauge samples) got a favorable review in spite of heavy triggers on one of them that 'lightened with use', the need to apply finish oil coats to one gun, and chokes that measured too open in the author's opinion. Never mind the frequent misfires, since that also got better with use.

Just incredible.

In spite of the grousing about chokes that 'measure' too open, the guns were apparently not pattern tested, or if they were the results were not published or mentioned. We have no information from this article how the guns shoot, or where they shoot. Even American Rifleman, as bad as that publication has become, pattern tests shotguns as part of a 'review'.

Bruce Buck apparently has a book for sale with more of these penetrating and critical expert shotgun reviews. Sign me right up.

Further search reveals an American Hunter review from 2013. Guess what... no pattern or POI testing. Same with Field and Stream, and the Dickinson made the author's 'short list'. One wonders what it takes to not make the cut.

They all agree... the guns 'look good and are priced right'.

L. Brown, what has happened to your industry?

Is this payola or true ignorance?

Thinking out loud: How fast are your loads going? Could slower and/or heavier ones be usefully used, so as to regulate in the way a double rifle might be regulated ie longer time in the barrel/heavier projectile weight imparts more "up" and "out" to the POI??

The first 2 posts cover that question well.

The patterns shown are a 3" factory game load.

It's a .410, well known for it's punishing recoil.