I usually take a long weekend to hunt the northwest part of the state of MN. with a fellow BBSer for a long weekend in the fall. The last few seasons I have brought a single gun, a recent to me Darne 20 gauge R10 in 20 gauge. I prefer to bring only a single gun, to lessen the "kludge" factor, not having so much to pack/unpack, and any double with two triggers is a good choice, and a Darne is a great choice, there are few examples of broken Darnes. The gun is sub 6 lbs, nicely balanced, typical left lever safety that works well for me. Nice gun for a longish weekend of grouse hunting.
I had never patterned it at the typical grouse shot yardage I've noted in that part of the world, prior to today. Never thought too much about it, I had gotten some birds, and missed some birds, about par for me for early season.
This is the open choked pattern at about 23 yards, a run of the mill range up there in the first few months of the season:
Wow. Thats a bit tight.
Second, tighter barrel, which, I don't think I have ever fired at a grouse:
The patterns don't say early season grouse gun to me. They say later season pheasant gun. A use I had never considered with this piece, which practically screams "take me GROUSE hunting, please!" I would be a bit loath to move this gun on, it has sweet handling, and light, crisp, trigger pulls, something one doesn't always get with a Darne R model. I don't have the equipment to measure 20 and 28 gauge gun bores that I have for 12 and 16, but, this may be a wakeup call. I would have had a pretty good idea how a 12 would have patterned before I shot it.
At any rate, I'm not poor in grouse capable guns, not even poor in specific Darne capable grouse guns, either the V19 in 28 and a different R10 in 12 gauge, both with much more open chokes, will suffice this fall. Nice to have choices. And, slings, which both guns have.
I hadn't considered this little 20 to be a pheasant gun, up until today. But, it might just end up that way.
Best,
Ted
Ted,
How is the gun choked? Really looks awfully tight. Would spreaders make it useful? I sometimes loosen up my IC barrel using 1 oz. of 8's or 8 1/2's in my light 12 ga. You perhaps don't want to alter the chokes, and I can't blame you.
Have to say though, chokes like that really anchor the bird! I'm alraedy looking forward to next "Grousemas" up here in Michigan.
Karl
At 23 yards is about where skeet guns are patterned. Unless you want a skeet gun, it looks ok to me, likely ic/mod (assuming that's a large piece of paper like butcher paper). You can probably tell more about what choke it is patterning at 40 yards.
Karl,
I vaguely remember sticking a dial caliper into both bores when I got the gun, and not thinking the chokes were much different than IC and Mod. But, there was a horsefly in that yogurt:
The proofhouse noted that the bore measurment, 9" from the breech face was 16.0mm, in both barrels. This is actually a good bit bigger than standard, 20 gauge bore. Backbored, in today speak.
Since I got the gun, I have noted that many Darne 20s are bored this way. I'm guessing it lends more actual constriction than it at first appears there is to this gun and others like it.
All of my other Darnes are much closer in an industry standard measurement, or, a bit undersize.
Not a huge fan of spreaders, and, besides, I have guns choked in a configuration more useful for earlier season use on ruffies and woodcock. But, it was eye opening out there today, to say the least.
Best,
Ted
At 23 yards is about where skeet guns are patterned. Unless you want a skeet gun, it looks ok to me, likely ic/mod (assuming that's a large piece of paper like butcher paper). You can probably tell more about what choke it is patterning at 40 yards.
Do you shoot a lot of grouse and woodcock, in September/October, at 40 yards?
Rhetorical, Buzz, everyone already knows the answer.
Best,
Ted
At 23 yards is about where skeet guns are patterned. Unless you want a skeet gun, it looks ok to me, likely ic/mod (assuming that's a large piece of paper like butcher paper). You can probably tell more about what choke it is patterning at 40 yards.
Do you shoot a lot of grouse and woodcock, in September/October, at 40 yards?
Rhetorical, Buzz, everyone already knows the answer.
Best,
Ted
I'm not sure why you needed to come back with a patronizing and condescending reply there Ted. Are you always looking for a pissing match or maybe it's just your nature? All was trying to say is I don't think the chokes in your gun are all that terribly/horribly tight, even for grouse, certainly not full and extra full. But, maybe I'm wrong on the chokes?
When you get tired of two piper a new 16ga Auto-5 inertia driven semi-auto is excellent substitute. With 26" it has low weight and excellent handling. By changing choke tube you can select pattern you like with different loads. It is modern international design with parts from all over the world assembled at a secret location.
16mm or .630 is a tad overbore, but not excessively and not uncommonly for other brands.
Polywad to the rescue.
Pack a box of their 20ga spread loads and hit the early grouse woods.
No worries.
Hi, Ted
It's a good idea to end rhetorical questions with a period instead of a question mark.
Maybe something in the cause of shot dispersion thread can help(?) (.)
(I was hoping to find out where the galaxy of 7 of 9's was in that thread. No luck)
___________________________
The Pride of Nova Scotia.
https://youtu.be/RUnSZddpObo
Good MOA group Ted!! Patterns looks more like a rifle then a shotgun. Still a beautiful shotgun by the way.
If you like the gun and are getting birds with it who cares how it's choked. There are times when it is better to be dumb and happy then smart.
Ted,
I have 3 Merkels. A 12-20-28 ga. All are choked iC/MOD. Interestingly, they all measure .008 and .018, what you would expect for 12 ga. boring. Oddly, they all pattern IC/MOD beautifully at 25 & 40 yards. I'm still trying to figure that one out, but there you are.
I really don't care for spreaders either by the way.
Karl
16mm or .630 is a tad overbore, but not excessively and not uncommonly for other brands.
Polywad to the rescue.
Pack a box of their 20ga spread loads and hit the early grouse woods.
No worries.
Not excessively or uncommon for other brands, when? This gun was built in the 1940s, long before plastic shot cups were in use.
What was the point of a backbore of .015 when your wad was felt, circa 1948? I've seen Darne guns that were pre-war with the same 16mm bore. I don't know exactly what they were after. I assume it tightened the pattern up slightly with old felt wad ammunition, at the risk of blown patterns with heavier loads, and tightens the pattern to the next constriction, say, modified to full, with plastic shot cup ammunition.
It is choked too tight for the type of grouse hunting I have done with it. That point might be difficult for someone who has never been in a northern MN. grouse woods to come to grips with, especially in the first 40 days of the season. 25 yards is a very long shot in that setting. I have no plans of opening it, I have others that will do. I actually have good "depth" on sliding breech guns choked for grouse hunting, either of these will do nicely:
I eschew spreaders as I usually have a pooch along for the day, hell, I wouldn't hunt birds if I didn't have a dog.
I'm not convinced the "spread" of spreaders is very well controlled, or, predictable.
Karl, have you ever measured the bore of those different guns, and discovered how close to industry spec they are, or, aren't?
Best,
Ted
When you get tired of two piper a new 16ga Auto-5 inertia driven semi-auto is excellent substitute. With 26" it has low weight and excellent handling. By changing choke tube you can select pattern you like with different loads. It is modern international design with parts from all over the world assembled at a secret location.
PJ,
I own, like, two dozen shotguns. I have guns with choke tubes, but, none are doubles. I did change a choke tube in a King's Ferry Ithaca model 37 3" 12 gauge (ever see one?) a while back, to shoot a round of trap-I had an IC tube in it for pheasant hunting, and replaced it with a modified. But, I seldom do that. I have two autoloading shotguns, I didn't purchase them, and haven't used either in about 4-5 years, I'm guessing. We are on a double gun site, and when I'm hunting, I guess I prefer to use good, old fashoned, double guns.
I've managed to avoid screw choking any good quality double guns. I have opened a few, but, again, not recently.
That is why I hang out here, and not, say, on a Browning autoloader site, or, a plastic stock/glow worm bead site, or, a shotgun barrel porting site.
I guess this post was more about discovering where a gun I own will best serve my use as it is, rather than running out to buy the latest new gun.
Early season grouse hunting doesn't typically offer shots with a truly clear view of the bird, a lot of time, or long shots. Most of the leaves are still on the trees, at that time. I'm leaning toward not using or bringing this gun along, based on the short range perfomance I saw today.
I don't need another gun.
Thanks, anyway.
Best,
Ted
Ted,
The barrel flats indicate that they are slightly overbored for the respective gauge. I've had the bores measured as well as the chokes. The choke measurments indicate a very long choke taper. I suspect that is why they pattern as such.
RE: Spreaders. Years ago I was on a hunt with a couple of guys, one who was using spreaders. The dog took a pellet in the lung with deadly results. That hunt still haunts me.
Karl
Ted,
This is my Merkel doing what it likes best.
Karl
Ted,
By the way, I was able to finally post the picture above thanks to the previous advise from Ken61 in a previous post. Now I can finally share pictures painlessly. Many thanks again!
Karl
My comment wasn't a historical perspective.
I also have no clue 'why'. Why is my current production German 410 bored .401? There is a chart online of max/min diameters and sure enough, German minimum is .401.
I respect your safety decision on the spread load over your dog.
Have a nice summer and good hunting next season.
Another beautiful shotgun. Karl, ordered from Merkel?
Sounds like the perfect reason to take that 28 but first shoot a couple patterns with it. The 28 can easily handle the range that you are shooting early season and when the birds are not heavily feathered out. You just don't want to be shooting another version of the same patterns.
treblig,
Yes the 20 ga. was ordered directly from Merkel, as it was one of their "custom" models that I just couldn't refuse, sounds like a good excuse doesn't it? I was fortunate enough to find the 12 & 28 ga. locally. I really love all three, but the baby framed 28 ga. is a sweetheart.
Still trying to figure out how they can all pattern well if they are all choked .008 & .018.
Karl
Appears to be the 20 gauge in the photos, Karl. I've never owned a Merkel, but, have friends that do, and the dang things sure remain tight and hard to open for a long time. Really well built and fitted, from what I can see.
Good to see the photos, by the way. Thanks.
I've owned many Darne 12s that were stamped 18.2 by the proof house in St. Etienne, which, actually makes them 13 gauge guns. My 28 comes in at 14.0, pretty close to .550", right on 28 gauge.
Why many of the 20s were .015 over, right from the factory, is something I really don't have a good explaination for. I don't have many opportunities bird hunting to make use of a full choke gun.
Best,
Ted
Sounds like the perfect reason to take that 28 but first shoot a couple patterns with it. The 28 can easily handle the range that you are shooting early season and when the birds are not heavily feathered out. You just don't want to be shooting another version of the same patterns.
I patterned the 28, at the same range, on the same day. Much more useful at that range than the 20. I'll try to get a pic or two up after lunch.
I really need to buy some tools to measure the smaller bore guns.
Best,
Ted
My local Cabelas is very nice about letting me use their bore measuring gauges and their barrel thickness gauge. They laughingly tell me I'm the only one that knows how to use them. Since I only feel the need to measure a barrel once a year, borrowing sure beats buying.
I am able to use the thickness gauge only after arguing with 8bore that it can't be done.
Ted,
I just checked the barrel flats on my Merkels this morning. The 12 ga. is stamped 18.6 - .732, 20 ga. 16.0 - .630, and the 28 ga. 14.0 - .551.
Again, slight over bore on the 12 & 20, with virtually none on the 28 ga. The mysteries of shotgun barrels!
Hope this helps,
Karl
My first SxS was a 20ga. Merkel 47E circa mid 90's (before the big price jack) from GSI. They offered a very long warranty with a German gunsmith on site. Seemed like a great value to me, so I bought one.
The configuration error was my fault. I thought the gun should have a PG and SST at the time, but I've since learned differently.
About the third time out, the bastard doubled on me and gave me the flinches for weeks after. The problem is that if the trigger selector, which is on the trigger itself, is centered the trigger sits on both sears. The German gunsmith confirmed this. His exact words "Ja, dey do dat".
The spring on the detent is none too strong, so the selector can indeed end up in the center instead of being properly set. They offered to fix that, but I just kept an eye on it instead until a local Germanophile offered to buy it.
It is still tight to this day, very tight. The barrel polish and blue is just stunning. It did go back for service at one point, and the only thing the new owner complains about is the floor plate screw now has a habit of backing itself out.
I'd buy a double trigger model with a straight stock should one present itself.
Shotgunjones,
I feel the same way about single triggers, although I've used them sucessfully on my Browning Citoris when I had them. Purchased a Browning Superlight with a straight stock and fell in love. I got rid of the O/Us and began preferring SxSs. They are all english stocked with double triggers. I've had the Merkels for several years now, and you're right about the tightness! Maybe my grandchildren will finally be able to break them in.
I've talked to the gunsmith Herbert at GSI several times in the past, very helpful.
Karl
That's one thing you can always say about a German, they are over built.
That Frenchy's choke looks like there is not much forgiveness there and for early season close quarters Grouse you need as much leeway as you can get.
That's one thing you can always say about a German, they are over built.
That Frenchy's choke looks like there is not much forgiveness there and for early season close quarters Grouse you need as much leeway as you can get.
Both points-you got that right.
I'm guessing you've shot a ruffie or two in your day.
Best,
Ted
Ted,
This is my Merkel doing what it likes best.
Karl
That quail on the right in the second pic looks like a Tennessee Red to me...Geo
Ted:
So...we may both be lugging 28s next year? I will still have my Richards along as well, of course.
Just a natural history observation. Field trial bird makes perfect sense...Geo
Ted,
I would really be interested in those choke measurments if you get them measured. You have me thinking of reevaluating my choke choices.
Karl
The strangest thing to me about this whole thread is that someone so astute concerning shotguns and aware of the narrow range of suitability of a gun for a very particular type of hunting would use a gun for several years without ever shooting a pattern out of each barrel to see what he was carrying around.
SRH
Looks like the Darne thing patterns low to me...
Stan,
I have patterned my shotguns and have been satisfied, I was just thinking that there may be room for improvement if I were to learn of someone's solution to their problem.
Karl
I understand your interest, Karl. I was referring to Ted's original post.
SRH
Stan,
It isn't a meat trip for me. Early in the season grouse and woodcock hunting is largely a spectator sport. I get a few shot at birds, but, it isn't terribly important to shoot at every bird, and won't happen anyway. Bringing one gun is a very good idea, it lessens the chance of theft, either from the vehicle, or the tin shack I stay at, which, is a possiblility in the neighborhood. My Dad taught me that bringing only one gauge of gun was a great idea, I've just taken it to the next level with but one gun.
The 20 is a recent gun, comfortable and easy to carry. As I said, I got some birds, missed some others. I could have done worse.
I'll use a gun with more open chokes this year, but, a little secret between you and I is I doubt I'll bring a bunch more birds home, and, I'm OK with that. I haven't killed more than a brace of grouse in a day in a long time, more than enough for me. Catching dinner with Lloyd, and the time spent afield with him, and the pooch and sometimes, our kids, is maybe just a bit more important to me than how many I got. It isn't that I'm lazy, I just enjoy the whole trip, and I honestly could make it work without a gun if I had to.
Best,
Ted
Stan,
It isn't a meat trip for me. Early in the season grouse and woodcock hunting is largely a spectator sport. I get a few shot at birds, but, it isn't terribly important to shoot at every bird, and won't happen anyway. Bringing one gun is a very good idea, it lessens the chance of theft, either from the vehicle, or the tin shack I stay at, which, is a possiblility in the neighborhood. My Dad taught me that bringing only one gauge of gun was a great idea, I've just taken it to the next level with but one gun.
The 20 is a recent gun, comfortable and easy to carry. As I said, I got some birds, missed some others. I could have done worse.
I'll use a gun with more open chokes this year, but, a little secret between you and I is I doubt I'll bring a bunch more birds home, and, I'm OK with that. I haven't killed more than a brace of grouse in a day in a long time, more than enough for me. Catching dinner with Lloyd, and the time spent afield with him, and the pooch and sometimes, our kids, is maybe just a bit more important to me than how many I got. It isn't that I'm lazy, I just enjoy the whole trip, and I honestly could make it work without a gun if I had to.
Best,
Ted
. Exactly Ted.....it's the Indian and not the arrow. You already told us you harvest just as many grouse with this gun as your other guns. What are your other guns?? Cylinder bore?? BTW, you have told us you hunt grouse with a slinged gun. Well, as a seasoned grouse hunter I have a hard time wrapping myself around that since most grouse hunters are at the ready the majority of the time, and you hunt with a sling. How do you dismount that slinged gun after the flush and still need a cylinder choked gun?? I'm confused on that for sure! Back to your 23 yard pattern, you did not draw a circle around the densest part of your pattern and present us with the given diameter. It is mere speculation as to what choke your gun has without more data. I still would recommend you pattern your gun at 40 yards, draw a 30" circle around the most dense portion of the shot charge and then calculate the efficiency. You can pattern at 23 yards, but you really need to tell us more (i.e., densest diameter at that yardage keeping in mind that ic has close to 100% efficiency at 20 yards). So, maybe cylinder choke is best for early season grouse, but I'm not convinced of that. If your gun is slinged all the time and you are shooting birds on the wing with a slinged gun, then I'm guessing cylinder choke is not the ticket for you since it takes quite a long time to get ready for the shot from the slinged shotgun attitude. On the other hand and if the birds are shot out of trees or on the timber trails/roads, then a full choke might be your best friend (that is, if that's how you hunt grouse)?????
It's a hobby, do what enjoy the most.
Stan,
It isn't a meat trip for me. Early in the season grouse and woodcock hunting is largely a spectator sport. I get a few shot at birds, but, it isn't terribly important to shoot at every bird, and won't happen anyway. Bringing one gun is a very good idea, it lessens the chance of theft, either from the vehicle, or the tin shack I stay at, which, is a possiblility in the neighborhood. My Dad taught me that bringing only one gauge of gun was a great idea, I've just taken it to the next level with but one gun.
The 20 is a recent gun, comfortable and easy to carry. As I said, I got some birds, missed some others. I could have done worse.
I'll use a gun with more open chokes this year, but, a little secret between you and I is I doubt I'll bring a bunch more birds home, and, I'm OK with that. I haven't killed more than a brace of grouse in a day in a long time, more than enough for me. Catching dinner with Lloyd, and the time spent afield with him, and the pooch and sometimes, our kids, is maybe just a bit more important to me than how many I got. It isn't that I'm lazy, I just enjoy the whole trip, and I honestly could make it work without a gun if I had to.
Best,
Ted
Yours is an admirable attitude, which I can appreciate. Moreover, I never suspected otherwise. It just seems a little late to start patterning it and deciding it is choked too tight, after using it for the "last few seasons", however many that is. You measured the muzzles' i.d.s and felt comfortable they were in the IC and Mod range. Did you not consider that to be mighty tight for under 25 yard shooting, even
without pattern verification? I would have just thought you would have been suspicious of too tight patterns before now. If it is worth shooting patterns to evaluate now, it should have been worth it before hunting it, I would think.
I guess I just don't understand the late motivation. Anyway, better late than never.
All the best, SRH
Not quite. Its the Indian with a good arrow.
Under early season conditions hunting Grouse you cannot have your right barrel choked that tight. Similar to late season pheasants with a cylinder bore. Like I said, even a good Indian needs a good bow and arrow to hit something.
And that is what he's saying that the right barrel on his 20 gauge is not set up for early season grouse. But if you hit something Ted with that pattern my hats off to ya.
ok treb...Ted now has a good arrow. Early season Ruffed Grouse beware!
Danre it....
Arrow no good without bow string....
Just like grouse gun no good hanging from ones shoulder on sling unless he shoot grouse out of tree.
I guess I just don't understand the late motivation. Anyway, better late than never.
All the best, SRH
Keemosabee say you shoot Darne it no matter....might well as have old bolt action shoot gun.
Ted, I can't measure the spread of your patterns from the pictures. My preference in grouse and woodcock guns, especially early season, is little or no choke in the open barrel. The tight one isn't as important on an early season gun because, as you observed, you don't get that many second barrel shots. I currently have a Francotte 16 that measures .002 R and .016 L, or not much more than cyl and mod. If I shot it better and if I didn't have a 28ga Parker Repro choked Q 1 & 2, it'd be a good grouse gun.
But just eyeballing your patterns, I'd bet that a 30" circle would cover 100% of both. The 2nd pattern, maybe a 20" circle.
If your choke were either cyl or skeet, you'd have quite a few hits outside the 30" circle. Cyl should give you about a 70% pattern at 25 yards; skeet, a little more than 80%. IC, at a bit less than 90%, will have some hits outside as well. Mod will put the entire pattern inside the circle at 25 yards, as (obviously) will full. Again only eyeballing, but I'd say that's what you have in that Darne.
With most woodcock shots coming well under 25 yards early in the season, I don't think I'd want to hit a doodle with even your open pattern. If I were to shoot a gun choked that tight for the game you're playing and didn't want to use spreaders, I'd go with very light loads--7/8 or even 3/4 oz--of 7 1/2's. Probably won't give you more spread, but will give you less density.
Makes me wish I was 35 and not 75. Guns don't bag grouse and woodcock-legs do, including our 4 legged pals afield. If I were in the upland shooting life again (GBE given due applause) I would use the only small bore double I own- a Utica Fox Sterlingworth 20 gauge- 28"barrels open choked, DT, EJ- 2&3/4" chambers- original factory stock dims- I bought it 7 years ago from a "retired" MI grouse gunner, well worn but no rust or dented barrels or heavily scratched up buttstock- I had planned to use it for the ill-fated MI dove season that never got underway. When my oldest grandson turns 14, I am going to give it to him.
I have never formally pattern tested any of my doubles, or my Model 12's on paper. Being a farm boy at heart, i just step off some paces from any available rusted out grain wagons or oil tanks that abound on the family farm back lots where I shoot pigeons and woodchucks in Spring and Summer months, usually with older paper shells-never with expensive steel shot loads- and see what impact and spread results. As long as I can drop grave yard dead waterfowl under 30 yards and closing, to me, the pattern spread, "Machts Nicht"--but I am not an upland gunner nowadays--
Good discussion though. I would sometimes pattern my left barrel to see how far my shotgun was throwing its pattern. I very rarely if ever patterned the right barrel assuming that it was throwing an open pattern.
Also, just don't use the standard 30 inch circle at 40 yards but move the patterning board to reflect hunting conditions during a particular time of year.
Of course I could have used this information a whole lot more forty years ago.
I often reenlighten myself during the cold winter months here in Michigan by rereading Bob Brister's excellent book on shotgun patterns. Always good as a refresher.
RWTF, I was also disappointed about our failed dove season. It seemed that the trial season introduced was only in the southern part of the state, which unfortunately was comprised mostly of private land, no public access.
Karl
My wise neighbors passed, by referendum, a law that gives exclusive power to the DNR to establish and regulate game seasons.
Then, a couple years later, my idiot neighbors passed another referendum that said "Oh, we didn't mean doves".
We need a referendum that says 'No more referendums'.
My wise neighbors passed, by referendum, a law that gives exclusive power to the DNR to establish and regulate game seasons.
Then, a couple years later, my idiot neighbors passed another referendum that said "Oh, we didn't mean doves".
We need a referendum that says 'No more referendums'.
We should be able to shoot those along with Euroasian doves and starlings. I mean coyotes, stray cats and crows want to eat too.
I recall that- giving the DNR the right to decide whether or not the doves that are raised here in MI, and possibly fly South- to a legal State for a dove season in the Fall- is wasting a resource-also hurts the economy, as the sales of shotgun ammo and reloading supplies rises in the States that have legal seasons on doves.
We have doves in our backyard year around it seems, although this just past February was mild and snow-free for 2017, very unusual. I just assumed that the doves migrated South during MI Winters, as do the ducks and geese- perhaps that is not always the case.
But the dove has given me the chance to make a "play on words with my two oldest grandchildren-- when the see the mourning doves on the roof or in tree branches in the afternoon, they will ask me if they are now "afternoon doves, Grandpa?"- Mourning-morning, sounds the same to their youthful ears- but Jordan (who will receive the 20 Sterly in 2 years) once also asked our waitress at Applebee's-- "Where do you keep the apples and the bees here?"" Gotta love messin' with those young minds.RWTF
Sorry for the time it took to get these up. My left thumb had a nasty run-in with the blade in a 36" Seypa paper cutter, should have had it stitched up, but, I was too busy at work.
This is better. 28 gauge Darne open choke tube at the same yardage:
Same gun, tighter barrel: These are 3/4 oz loads.
Buzz, we've been over this before, but, you still don't grasp it. I don't walk around in a grouse woods with a gun with a sling over my shoulder, at least not while I'm hunting. The Darne sling, because it is not mounted rigidly at the front, and is free to rotate in the mount at the rear, is very unobtrusive, and won't get hung up in brush. Further, it is easily removed at any point in the trip, and just as easily put back on. I don't shoot birds out of trees, although, the natives in the area don't seem to have a problem with doing that. This is not grouse hunting in the sense that Burton Spiller may have written about. Trails are bush hogged through an enormous WMA, and then seeded with clover. We walk the trails, and the birds typically are on the trail or just off it. The shots are close, fast, and furious. The birds I have gotten (four, in two trips) were taken as they exited through very tight cover stage left. I'm a lefty, and do better on that shot. It is damn tough cover to work a dog in, and my setter is coming along, learning hand signals, and mostly under control, but, it is not really like grouse hunting anywhere else we go.
The sling is a huge bonus when you are convincing a 2 year old setter that this isn't pheasant hunting.
I can't say I get as many birds with this gun as I do with my others. The Darne 12 with the sling has been part of my life for more than 20 seasons, and I've killed a HELL of a lot of all kinds of birds with it. But, hey, I've only had the 20 out twice.
Stan, I took the 20 two years running on this trip because it was my newest, and I simply felt like trying the thing out! It was pretty much a brand, new, 70 year old gun, who wouldn't want to try it out? Unlike a lot of you, I still work a 40-60 hour shift each week, have a ten year old, volunteer for RGS when I can, and have a homebound Mother and a disabled younger Brother. No, I didn't get the chance to pattern the 20 before the trip. So what? I got a few and had a blast.
Larry both 20 gauge patterns would be neatly covered by a 12" ruler. It is too tight for this grouse trip, but, maybe, later in the seaon, a guy could make it work.
jOe, you almost said something intelligent. The patterns for the 20 were photographed upside down in my garage. I corrected that for the 28 gauge photos. They are about 60/40, right side up, and I'm pretty sure a bird caught in either, at that range, would be inedible, but, if you send me an address, I'll pack any birds hit like that off for you.
I'll be better prepped, and informed this fall. Bet I still have a blast, enjoy my friend Lloyds company, have a few great meals, enjoy my dog, and the scenery, get a few, and, more than likely, miss a few, too.
It is the nature of the game the way I play it.
Best,
Ted
Sorry for the time it took to get these up. My left thumb had a nasty run-in with the blade in a 36" Seypa paper cutter,
Tell the truth Teddy...
I bet you got it caught in that Darne action.
Sorry for the time it took to get these up. My left thumb had a nasty run-in with the blade in a 36" Seypa paper cutter,
Tell the truth Teddy...
I bet you got it caught in that Darne action.
Like I said.
Almost.
Best,
Ted
Hi Ted. Your 28 ga patterns are clearly significantly more open than your 20 bore....likely the 28 would be the better arrow for you. How do the chokes measure in your 28? Cylinder for the right barrel? Good luck to you and I hope you do well in pursuit of the Ruffed Grouse.
Buzz,
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but, as I already posted, I don't have bore or choke measuring equipment for 20 or 28 gauge. I HAVE stuck a dial caliper in the end, but, you need to know more about the entire bore of the barrel to form up an opinion of how a gun is choked. That, and a bit of shooting it at paper, anyway. Let me stress this is my opinion only, and if someone else's differs, I won't argue it with them.
Having said that, I think I can state that the 28 gauge Darne would be the better option vs. the 20 gauge for this early season trip.
Thanks for the well wishes.
Lloyd,
I have options. 16 gauge Nitro, choked cyl and mod, lots of pumps that never see the light of day, 12 Darne with little and less choke, 28-I have time to process it a bit.
But, the 28 would be a dandy choice, no?
Best,
Ted
Ted:
The paper tells the tale. Heck, I have lots of gun measurement tools at my disposal and I can only measure very open chokes on 28s (no tighter than modified). All the guns you mention would serve nicely, but your 28 sounds like a prime candidate.
We'll be the French and Turkish contingent on the trails this Fall (unless I can't bear to leave my Richards in the truck).
LM
We'll be the French and Turkish contingent on the trails this Fall (unless I can't bear to leave my Richards in the truck).
LM
Er, maybe Huguenot and Muslim contingent?
Best,
Ted
[quote=Lloyd3]We'll be the French and Turkish contingent on the trails this Fall (unless I can't bear to leave my Richards in the truck).
LM
Er, maybe Huguenot and Muslim contingent?
Given recent developments there may be no "Turkish contingent" to be had soon.
You two bozos making fun of Muslims ?
You want to stay away from those Turkish guns, Joe. Next thing you know, you'll be making a trip to Mecca.
You two bozos making fun of Muslims ?
Not at all. After shoot down of Russian fighter-bomber it appears Turkey chose Russia over NATO (USA). Russia must have made some deal with them against their greatest enemy the Kurds. Our Great Leader sent envoy to meet the Turks and they pretty much said GFY. Now the Syrian people will determine if Assad stays or goes which means Russia along with Turkey will decide. In the future we may not be able to get those wonderful doubles from Turkey. What I'm saying it if you want one now is probably the time to get one.
Jagermeister, what do you think it would do for U.S.-Turkish relations if we all bought Turkish double shotguns on Layaway, and then reneged on the deal like you do so often?
Do you own even one double gun yet? Nope, I didn't think so. I really wonder why a guy who doesn't own a single double spends so much time here on a DOUBLE GUN forum posting crap about things he obviously knows so little about???
I sure hope no kid got hurt following your advice about dumping shot out of factory loaded shotshells, and the refilling them with buck shot packed in Grex. What did you call that little reloading activity???... oh yeah, it was repackaging.
Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--
I use plastic particles they use in buffered shot. Not sure where I got it from, but it works pretty well. Depending on manufacturer I think it's called Grex or something similar. It fills up the cup a little and provides wonderful cushioning for the shot above it. Very professional.
Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--
Time = money. I always buy factory loads and never re-load for that reason. In free time I like other activities that involve fresh air like hiking, mountain biking, fishing, hunting,.....
Post # 476288 on 3/37/17- Thread: "Information on Gunmaker Rivolier Pere et Fils"
Mr. "We" I do not reload shot shells. Repackaging is not equal to reloading.
No need to repackage shells. I have bought several boxes of Winchester Super-X 16ga 1oz #8s. Nice quality shells loaded in Australia. Interestingly same shells for 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 are Made in USA.
I hope relations between Turkey and USA improve. I enjoy their fig preserves and pomegranate juice.
PS, Unless Herter's shells are on sale there is no point for me going to Cabela's. Local Walmart carries Federal and Remington 1oz 16ga loads for about $7 per box meaning there is no point for me to drive extra 20 minutes to get there.
Order them when Cabela's is offering free shipping, Jager, and you don't need to drive to save money.
