Need the Advice/Experience of Win M21 Gurus - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

I just bought a M21, 12 ga trap gun with #5 engraving---have factory letter so no question about its authenticity.
However, there are a couple of items that get my attention. One, the letter says it is Trap but the gun is not marked as such---the stock is high as one would expect for a trap gun and it matches dimensions given in the letter---could it be that they purposely left off "TRAP" to give the engraver more space to do his work---or, maybe somebody simply forgot to stamp it "Trap".
The other interesting tidbit is that "WINCHESTER" is not marked on the left side of the left barrel---the barrel is definitely by Winchester and is marked on the barrel flats "DELUXE", serial numbered to the receiver and has Winchester proof marks and "WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL" is stamped on the underside of each barrel.
Anyone notice similar anomalies on their M21's or can shed advice from their experiences?

Winchester had both Trap and Tournament grades for both the Model 12 and Model 21 in the pre-WW2 1930=1940 era. But a Trap grade was not 100% a true Trapshooting set-up, as to stock dims, etc. It might be possible that your M21 was rebarreled. Was the No. 5 style of engraving done at the Custom Shop, according to the Cody Letter?

It is a 1946 gun, if that helps---letter simply says it has #5 engraving---nothing said about custom shop.
I have a 1933 era Tournament Skeet that was rebarrelled by Winchester in the 50's with set of 30" Mod and Full barrels---barrels were marked as Winchester but the wording was slightly different on the two sets of barrels---Winchester even put the original serial number on the new set of barrels.
I'm convinced the barrels on my #5 engraved gun are original---chokes and barrel length match the factory letter.
My guess is that Winchester forgot to put on their traditional stampings.
Bill

Bill: Is the gun a round action gun???(((No side cheeks))) If so, it was not uncommon for winchester to not stamp the floor plates on some the Round action guns... Schwing's book Winchester's finest, speaks of the inconsistency,s of the guns produced. Including ""Barrel Markings"" Good Luck with the gun,

David

As Dave says, round action guns are a law unto themselves. When your gun was made, DELUXE was a grade, round action or not, and would not be stamped TRAP, regardless of its dimensions. Later guns with DELUXE features, again, round action or not, were CUSTOM grade. Some Deluxe grade guns were stamped DELUXE on the floorplate, others were not. Custom grade guns did not have a floorplate stamping but the rib was usually marked "Custom Built for XXX" or a similar stamping with no name identification. We would like to see pictures of your gun and the letter.

Well said Murph...
I too would like to see photos of the gun. My opinion is,,, that many 21 winchesters are unique to themselves...
David

"Trap" and "Skeet" were intended to be grades, not descriptions of intended use . (Didn't we have this discussion about 6 months ago?) I have a 20 gauge 2 barrel set confirmed as a Skeet grade gun by Cody, but is not marked skeet on the frame. The barrels are 30" F/M, and 26"IC/Mod. Both barrels are chambered for 3" Shells

Thanks everyone.
It is NOT a round action. It is not stamped "TRAP" nor "DELUXE" which from your feedback is not uncommon. Also NOT marked Custom on the rib either.
Remember that the side of the barrels are not marked "Winchester" either---has anyone see this omission before---I'm confident the barrels are original to the gun.
Yes, I will post pictures after I clean the gun up---the previous owner is elderly and poor heath hit him quickly and the gun had been neglected.
The gun is very similar to the pics in the M21 book for the #5 grade gun---that being said there are not a lot of factory #5 grades and it is always nice to share with other M21 aficionados
Bill

What you have is a Deluxe grade that was made from 1940 to 1950.I assume the side panels on the stock are checkered. The reason its not stamped on the bottom is because of the engraving. Rounded frames were an extra on the Deluxe. The Deluxe grade replaced the Trap grade in 1940. The only difference in the two is the forend checkering. The Trap had the kidney pattern and the Deluxe had the Custom pattern. Both had the side panels checkered. They were available in 12, 16 and 20ga. The Customs did not have wording on the barrels so I assume the deluxe didn't either. After 1940 the trap gun became a type of gun not a grade also at that time the Custom Grade was dropped and then reinstated in 1950 when the Deluxe was dropped.

Model 21 grades in the 1930s were Standard Grade, Tournament Grade, Trap Grade and Custom Built Grade. When the Skeet Gun appears in the 1933 Winchester Catalog, it can be had in Tournament, Trap or Custom Built Grades --

1934 --

In the Winchester catalogs there was never a Skeet Grade, despite what a Cody letter or Schwing may say. By the 1937 catalog the Tournament Grade was gone and the Skeet Gun could be had in Standard, Trap or Custom Built Grades. By 1940 the Trap Grade is gone and the offerings are the Standard Grade, Trap Gun, Skeet Gun and Custom Built Grade. For 1941 the Model 21 Duck Gun was added to the mix. When we emerged from WW-II, the Custom Built Grade had been replaced by the DeLuxe Grade which lasted at least into 1950. By the January 2, 1952, Winchester Catalog they were back to Custom Built Grade. Between the 1953 and 1954 catalogs the Duck Gun became the Magnum Gun when they added the 20-gauge.

Originally Posted By: AlanCope

What you have is a Deluxe grade that was made from 1940 to 1950.I assume the side panels on the stock are checkered. The reason its not stamped on the bottom is because of the engraving. Rounded frames were an extra on the Deluxe. The Deluxe grade replaced the Trap grade in 1940. The only difference in the two is the forend checkering. The Trap had the kidney pattern and the Deluxe had the Custom pattern. Both had the side panels checkered. They were available in 12, 16 and 20ga. The Customs did not have wording on the barrels so I assume the deluxe didn't either. After 1940 the trap gun became a type of gun not a grade also at that time the Custom Grade was dropped and then reinstated in 1950 when the Deluxe was dropped.

Right on!!! And yes, the side panels are indeed checkered.
Bill

Originally Posted By: Researcher

Model 21 grades in the 1930s were Standard Grade, Tournament Grade, Trap Grade and Custom Built Grade. When the Skeet Gun appears in the 1933 Winchester Catalog, it can be had in Tournament, Trap or Custom Built Grades --

1934 --

In the Winchester catalogs there was never a Skeet Grade, despite what a Cody letter or Schwing may say. By the 1937 catalog the Tournament Grade was gone and the Skeet Gun could be had in Standard, Trap or Custom Built Grades. By 1940 the Trap Grade is gone and the offerings are the Standard Grade, Trap Gun, Skeet Gun and Custom Built Grade. For 1941 the Model 21 Duck Gun was added to the mix. When we emerged from WW-II, the Custom Built Grade had been replaced by the DeLuxe Grade which lasted at least into 1950. By the January 2, 1952, Winchester Catalog they were back to Custom Built Grade. Between the 1953 and 1954 catalogs the Duck Gun became the Magnum Gun when they added the 20-gauge.

Great info!!! Thanks indeed!!!

Just found another anomaly. The Factory letter says the gun has a beavertail forend. The gun came with two forends---the one on the gun is a replacement forend with a serial number NOT matched to the gun. The second forend is a splinter forend that is numbered to the gun and looks original to me. Looks like the Winchester records are wrong. The good news is that the splinter forend is original and has been preserved. Not sure why someone would want a splinter forend on a trap gun---maybe somebody goofed somewhere.
Bill

Interesting that the 1933 ad details the stock dims, including the 1" pitch on 26" long barrels. Have never yet seen that dimension detailed in an ad..

I was just looking at the 1953 Winchester Model 21 booklet and noticed there were no roll-stamped markings on the left side of the left barrel of any of the guns showing the 21-1 through 21-6 engraving patterns. Other places in the booklet where the left side of plain guns are pictured the roll-stamping is visible.

As to the forearms, a friend of mine has a fully optioned up Parker Bros. BHE-Grade pigeon/trap gun that has two complete forearms, one slim and one beavertail.

Originally Posted By: Researcher

I was just looking at the 1953 Winchester Model 21 booklet and noticed there were no roll-stamped markings on the left side of the left barrel of any of the guns showing the 21-1 through 21-6 engraving patterns. Other places in the booklet where the left side of plain guns are pictured the roll-stamping is visible.

As to the forearms, a friend of mine has a fully optioned up Parker Bros. BHE-Grade pigeon/trap gun that has two complete forearms, one slim and one beavertail.

Thanks, Researcher. You have confirmed the absence of the Winchester stamping on my 21-5 Win 21.
Yes, it is possible that my M21 had two original forends---now it has an original sliver forend and a non-original beavertail forend. Personally, I prefer the beavertail forend on a single trigger gun.
Bill