Just saw something about Ugartechea shutting down operations in a post on the 16 Gauge Society webpage. Anybody here know the back story?

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugartechea-statement.html

See:

http://www.bilozir.net/index.htm

"Ugartechea has stopped production of guns. They cite a weak market, labour and financial problems."

That's a neat summary.

The same factors that effectively killed Laurona, Zabala Hermanos, and (to a large degree) Pedro Arrizabalaga, did the same job on Ugartechea.

I regret to say I don't think it ends here; there will be other makers closing.

Word is finally getting out big time. See here:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=443314

An interesting look at a specific industry and how that industry survives or doesn't survive. Was it the constant barrage of bad press by American gun writers decades before of soft parts and weak metals used in 'price point' guns demanded by American buyers and supplied by Spanish makers during that period?

Yet look at the French gun industry. They have even a worse reputation here but they could care less. Their industry survives through French demand and French demand only and could care less if they export a gun to anyone. Has anyone heard of a Georges Granger except for a few double gun aficionados? Does he care, no.


Given today's gun environment where the double gun is universally accepted and mostly exempt from the world's restrictions on gun ownership you would think that these builders would be swamped with orders and demand just through the citizenry of their own country would far exceed supply.


Yet we have another builder disappearing at a time when you would think that the world wide market conditions would put them squarely in the money.


Strange times, strange industry.

If there was ever a complaint about French steel in guns lobbed on the internet, I haven't heard it. The French figured out first how to produce steel tubes, and a Frenchman was directly involved in getting American gun producers to use them.

Georges Granger has been dead for many years. Richard Levi owns the name, and the company. There were only three people who worked there when I was in France. A lot of the disinterest in selling guns abroad for them is the fact that they don't believe they are producing anything that would go in a blister pack at a retail store.
You show up in St. Etienne, get measured, show him your shooting style, have dinner with him, tell him how you will use the gun, leave a deposit, Richard will build you a gun.

There won't be any issues with reputation, either.

I think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg of what will be huge societal changes in all of Europe, a mostly bloodless revolution is underway, and it is largely out of the control of traditional Europeans.


Best,
Ted

yet, beretta and browning seem to be doing ok, with their high priced and ugly over and under guns...

Citizenry today is attracted generally to clickety-clacks, long shells---tools--- and not what Ted is talking about: splendid doubles within everyman's price ranges.

Figuring out a viable marketing strategy these days is very, very hard. Do you go for volume, at the low end price point, which has very little profit in it? Do you go for the top end with much higher margins but very small volume? Can you find a mix that will give you enough volume and profit at the same time? And if you miss you are doomed to go under.

then add in the worse problem that you are competing with cheaper gun making sources like Turkey, which is turning out a decent, lower price point gun and getting a decent reputation for it being reliable. Once they have taken that market away from you then they will move up into the mid priced guns and try to do the same. Is this not exactly what the Spanish gun makers did themselves 40 years ago? It is now their turn to see it from what must have been the British and Belgian perspective as they watched their buyers shift buying patterns to the cheaper guns from Spain. What goes around comes around.

If you think hunting and firearms ownership was about "everyman" in Europe, you are badly confused, King.

The only market left for hunting implements of any pay grade, is right here. I gave consideration to a bespoke Spanish gun about a year ago. It was Kyrie that gently pointed out it simply didn't make sense. The same gun, purchased used, and restocked, right here, was still far less money than new. Huge consideration for a working stiff like me, but, I doubt the idle rich are terribly interested in buying something that is worth 25% of what they payed for it, in a year.

So it goes with Spanish guns.

Best,
Ted

Hey go easy on those Beretta and Browning O/Us. Some of us like them.

There is a used Ugartechea SxS 16 ga in the Gunstop in Minnetonka Mn. I handled it and would have bought it if the barrels were 28', vs 26".

Good points about French guns, Ted. Because the French never tried very hard to penetrate the US market--and particularly because, unlike the Spanish, they never cut corners to produce "price point" guns for the US market and ended up damaging the reputation of their entire gun industry as a result--there was never any blanket condemnation of the French gun industry, as was (unfairly) applied to the Spanish some years ago. What there was, for the most part, was a lack of knowledge about French guns--with the exception of the quirky Darne, which was simply too quirky for most Americans.

Some of us, however, discovered that more typical (meaning standard break action) French shotguns tended to be quite consistently well-made, even if they were very plain. And they remained real sleepers on the American market for a long time. they still are, to a certain extent, for the simple reason that you can't judge them based on a maker's name--because many of them don't carry a real maker's name. Sometimes no name at all; sometimes the name of the gun shop that sold the gun in question. France is really the best example of "buy the gun, not the name". But you have to be really careful, because without a name, there's no "brand value" to apply, as in the valuation system Don Amos uses for British guns. Beyond Darne, Manufrance, and maybe Verney-Carron, very few Americans have any kind of clue when it comes to French guns. And while that's also true to a certain extent with German and Belgian guns, there are far more famous names to add "brand value" to guns from those countries.

If you want a solid gun, find something French in decent condition. (Quite a few show significant misuse/abuse.) Check for pitted barrels (corrosive primers, because most predate WWII) and heavy trigger pulls. Chokes will often be tight, but that's a relatively cheap and easy fix. Don't pay too much. You can likely score a gun that's better than its equivalent from anywhere else, and for less money. But not as much less as used to be the case.

There are a lot of moving parts in the collapse of the Spanish artisanal shotgun makers, and none of those parts involve the myth of soft steel or American gun writers.

This is mostly the result of poor Spanish governance, Poor EU governance, and what amounts to a worldwide “recession”.

The two most recent parts are the new Spanish yearly tax on the ownership of a firearm and the Spanish/EU response to the terrorist attacks in the EU countries.

In terms of that yearly tax, back around 2008 Spain imposed a new, yearly, tax of 100 Euro on each gun possessed. This tax flushed out all the shotguns held, but infrequently (or never) used. Rather than pay the 100 EU yearly tax people just turned them into the Civil Guard.

These were not a few guns; these are of tens of thousands of guns made sometime in the last hundred and fifty years. The Civil Guard began auctioning these abandoned guns in roughly 2009. The truly high end guns were mostly purchased in Spain, by Spanish collectors and the local Spanish gun shops that served those top-end buyers. The lower price point guns, and the guns in poorer shape, were purchased by others - including some US importers.

Century Arms International (CAI) imported thousands into the USA. Most of these CAI imports were in pretty rough condition, but there were some real gems. There were so many of these guns that the price here in the USA of a nice quality, used, Spanish side lock crashed from circa $3,000 to less that $1000. I personally bought a couple dozen and never paid more than $800. For a few of these guns I paid less than 300 USD.

In Spain, the local market for new artisanal guns simply dried up. No one in his right mind would pay 10,000 - 20,000 Euro for a new gun when he could buy a used one for under 1,000 Euro, spend another 700 Euro to have the used gun restored to like new (with a new, custom, made-to-his-measure, stock). I did this with several guns myself.

At present, in Spain, a new, top end, gun will run between 20,000 and 30,000 Euro, depending on the bells and whistles. That same gun, used and restorable to like new condition, can be had for a few hundred Euro.

Regarding the terrorist attacks in the EU countries, the knee jerk EU response has been to tighten up the regulation of the gun trade, especially the import/export of firearms. As a result it’s increasingly difficult to export a shotgun from Spain. Back in 2012 I could get a Spanish export permit for any number of shotguns in about three months. At present I know people who have been waiting almost a year for a Spanish shotgun export permit.

Bottom line: no domestic market and a failing export market.

That Spanish artisanal shotgun makers are going out of business isn't surprising; what is surprising is there are any left.

Another factor is the increased sales of Turkish-made SxS's.

The Turks only compete with the lower-end SxS's, but they seem to be selling well: CZ, SKB, Dickinson, etc.

In the past, Ugartechea and AyA used to compete in this low-end SxS segment with their boxlocks.

The EU's economic problems, and a strong dollar also contributed.

If soft Spanish gun parts are a myth could someone explain the Grulla 215 that came in my shop in this weak with ejectors smashed both where the hammers contact them and where they contact the stop screw? I showed the damage to client and anyone who understands proper metallurgy can clearly see the issue is they were simply made too soft. No myths....just the facts at the bench this week.

What I wrote was “the myth of soft steel”. What you’re reporting is low carbon steel with poor to no heat treatment.

If you can understand those are two different subjects we can have a discussion.

You want to start argument over something I never said, then you’re just arguing with yourself.

Please by all means, educate me. My premise is that the ejectors were shipped out too soft. My guess is they actually used some type of tool steel and over tempered the parts creating something that was not as hard as it should have been. It could indeed be low carbon steel but I thought Grulla was a better maker than that, could be my mistake. Help me out, your the expert. What exactly is the reasons the ejectors are not properly heat treated? If you are able to tell me the alloy that was used to make the part I can properly heat treat them myself. Not looking for an argument but I have run into many heat treating issues with Spanish guns over the years and them having soft parts is no myth.

First off, I'm being misunderstood. French guns didn't ever have a problem with soft steel. Their reputation suffers from peoples' misconception and complete lack of knowledge and experience surrounding French built guns combined with the seemingly inability of American gun writers to correct these misconceptions. But, unlike other countries and their gun makers, the French don't really care if you buy their gun or not, they're doing just fine without you.

The Spanish high end guns for the money are probably the best deal you can find for a new double even with the higher prices.

But, demand is down, so much so that a fine builder is gone because of this lack of demand.

Steve, your a Gunsmith, as such, you don't know squat!!

The Master has spoken, so it's no use. Your years of experience is all for nought when it comes to Spanish guns.....you fool!

Good Luck!

GJW, I assume you are being ironic, am I right?

Getting back to the original point as to why another gun maker is going out of business.
Have you ever contemplated upon the number of double guns there are currently privately owned and in circulation?
I believe the membership here is also astute enough to realize that a well built double gun will last for generations if properly cared for.
I and I know many of you as well own perfectly functional double guns that are over 100 years old that still provide reliable service.
Additionally there IMO hasn't been a real breakthrough in double gun technology in decades. A 50 or 75 year old gun can be just as effective in the field and one made last month.
In general a used double can be bought for a fraction of the cost of a new one and I'll give you some hard numbers here. I have a 2 barrel cased AyA double that was built in the 70s at a cost of around $4,000. To duplicate this gun today from AyA(and I have a written quote) it would cost over $13,000.
You add all this up along with a weak economy and I think it's apparent why the new mid range to high end gun market is weak.
Jim

The European market for firearms is small, as most countries in the EU have very restrictive gun laws, and with the troubles we have witnessed in france etc, are only going to get tighter. Add to that that the side by side, which i assume is what Ugartechea produced the most of, is seen as an old coots gun this side of the Atlantic. When i go shooting clays with mine, i am usually the only one out of dozens with a sxs.
The Spanish stuff does not have the reputation of the Italian guns like Beretta and Perazzi, i suppose the closest they would get would be AYA.

Well said, sir.

Just being a smarta$$. Steve is one the the finest smiths in the country. He knows his business thru hands on working, not what he just assumes because he's kennel blind.

Sweet Jesus, SKB, you are supposedly a custom gun maker, you had the gun and the ejectors in your hands, and you’re asking me what kind of steel they were made of and how they were heat treated?

Seriously?

[/quote]

What I wrote was “the myth of soft steel”. What you’re reporting is low carbon steel with poor to no heat treatment.

If you can understand those are two different subjects we can have a discussion.
[/quote]

and I thought you were going to educate me about how to properly harden low carbon steel......

and please, more on "the myth of soft steel" as well. Your post has been highly enlightening so far.

Steve, you mean entertaining not enlightening.....right?

And, I'm getting along just fine without them, too, not that I have anything against the French. Just "pahtial" to American, I guess.

SRH

Well heck, this is enlightening. One way to look at the weak market value of used Spanish doubles is that a whole lot more folks could be introduced them. Later, they are the folks who might seek out a higher end gun, just as the folks who can afford it, started at one time.

I wonder why there's such a push in the US to flush everything out of the woodwork and get 'em registered.

Craig,
You missed the real weak end of the market. Back when I got my Falcon 12 gauge (Uggy, imported here by American Imports, 1972 vintage) I routinely saw the dumped Spanish guns Kyrie is referring to in the $250-400 range. I won the auction for mine at $404, shipped. Mine wasn't dumped here, but, seller had to compete with a bunch that had been.
I won't speak to other peoples Uggies, or, to the broader scope of soft stuff in Spanish guns other than to say this: Mine is good, and would have been dragged there, kicking and screaming if it hadn't been (more on that in a second) and John, one of the regulars here, who has imported Arriettas for years said he never has had a problem.
Good enough from here.
I got mine for so cheap I sent it to Cole Haugh, a former importer and gunsmith for Uggy, for new poly on the stock, new recoil pad, strip and clean, and opening the chokes. Since the gun has disc set strikers, I got a spare set, and the tool to put them in. Cole told me he always annealed, re-heat treated, and tempered the guts of a gun he got in for a strip and clean. Cheap insurance, he told me. I never had the chance to find out if anything was soft. He did a little polishing to internals, bent the stock left, and sealed the stock up and returned it to me.
I'm really happy with the gun to this point. The Falcons were 3" chamber and proof, hidden third fastener non-ejectors, perfect for typical rainy day gun use. The gun, gunsmithing, and K & K case all came in less than $1200, and it is what I use as a traveler. Or, when hunting with someone's Lab, as they seem to step on the wrist of guns, or lift their legs and pee on guns, etc.
People seem to be asking $500-1K for the guns, now, no idea what they are getting for them. Not English best, granted, but, I wouldn't use it as much as I do if it were.



I've got a little tool box that can come along, with the spare strikers. Haven't needed it, yet.




Best,
Ted

Just like real estate, Location, Location, Location. But for guns its Reputation, Reputation, Reputation.

What I wrote was “the myth of soft steel”. What you’re reporting is low carbon steel with poor to no heat treatment.

If you can understand those are two different subjects we can have a discussion.
[/quote]

and I thought you were going to educate me about how to properly harden low carbon steel......

and please, more on "the myth of soft steel" as well. Your post has been highly enlightening so far.

[/quote]

Not interested, but feel free to waste another's time.

You should become a comic......

How were able to determine that the ejectors were low carbon steel?

Poor or no heat treatment?

You do know low carbon steel can only be hardened by case hardening don't you? I think you know squat about metallurgy but try to pass yourself off as an expert....just my opinion though.

Poor to no heat treatment? Poor perhaps--quien sabes??How measured. Rockwell hardness testing? What scale? Or perhaps a DHP test? Let's get specific..

Sounds typical, someone calls the masters bluff and that ends any discussion on the matter. Steve, you won!

Lion Country Supply(doubleshotguns.com) began importing Uggies 30 years ago and still have a large inventory of all grades. They will continue to service Uggie shotguns for a long time.
http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ugartechea.html

Why any EU double gun maker would go bust? In addition to the reasons mentioned above there is the ascendancy of the autoloader in Europe.

Over 60 per cent of respondents in an EU survey favored self loaders mentioning instant repairability, owner servicing as reasons. Now with almost universal offering of choke tubes and stock shims the auto is arguably more popular and more "bespoke" than the stock double. It can be made to fit the owner in minutes at zero cost. It costs less to buy than a stock double and much less to repair. Gunsmithing is not cheap (nor fast) in Europe and barring some UK shoots the autoloader is acceptable in most types of EU hunting.

Let me say I totally agree with your assessment. However; These are a lot of shotgun owners what still find a largely hand made double gun far more attractive that a mostly mass produced pump or semi example.
It's like comparing apples to oranges or a Ferrari to a Ford sedan. These are both vehicles and If I had to pick one to drive across the country with minimal problems it would be the Ford every time. Now driving across for sheer pleasure would be a different matter entirely!

I know most here well understand this but I'm going to repeat it anyway. Because of the inherent nature of double guns the technology still doesn't exist today to craft one mechanically. It still take the skills of multiple craftsman to accomplish this task. When I pick up one of mine the fact that it started out as raw steel and wood and was turned into what I'm holding thru the manual efforts of several individuals primarily using hand tools and their own practiced eye I'm still in awe.
I expect we may be the last generation to be able to afford this type of luxury in a world that is rapidly evolving away from craftsmanship.
Jim

James,

I agree with the using pleasure aspect re doubles, which is why I own several and no autos or pumps.

On the other hand, I often wish the makers would show more innovation and offer us doubles that we can use, service and fit more easily and economically yet still retain the using pleasure. If Perazzi can do it so can others, but few were willing to innovate.

I don't think innovation sells when the user is looking for the shooting experience of a bygone era.
Not many people who are looking at restored model A Fords would be interested in one that had been converted to fuel injection and had an air conditioner installed on it. At least not enough people to justify doing it as a production venture.
That is what modern era cars are for. Same with double guns.

Best,
Ted

That's it, Ted. It's all about the hunt, the gun and the dog. If you get something it's a bonus.