Does anyone know if it was common in the 1920's for Churchill to offer 25" barrels on 12 ga guns.

I believe that Churchill kinda started the whole 25" bbl thing...something about himself blowing the muzzles off of a favorite gun prior to going to a big shoot...he had his smith bob the bbls to 25"....& it became a bit of a fashion...at least thats what ive read
franc

Tamid,

Here is a link to a 10 page discussion on the subject: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=48115&page=1

Enjoy

Blue Book of Gun Values states Churchill started producing the XXV guns in the early 1920s, noting they quickly became popular.

Thank you for that reference. Confirms Churchill's 25" gun but rather boring reading through two men's arguments which really had nothing in common.

Tamid,

Yes Churchill developed and marketed the 25" barrelled gun in the 20's, and called them XXVs. If you pick up a copy of his "Game Shooting" (ghosted by MacDonald Hastings) you get the story. He made many hundreds of them and was careful to publicise all the "posh" purchasers such as The Prince of Wales. He didn't just promote the guns, he pushed the shooting style he thought they demanded too, from his own shooting school in St Mary Cray, Kent.

Bob inherited the EJ Churchill business form his Uncle "Ould Ted" when it was effectively bankrupt; it took him 20 years to get it back to robust health, and then WW11 scuppered him again. Ted could build a gun from his own hands, lock, stock and barrel, though I suspect Bob couldn't knock a nail in straight; his forte was selling and salesmanship.

Churchill severely damaged his right eye in WW1 when experimenting with incendiary ammunition for the RAF. This, combined with his stocky build, led him to the XXV configuration, and what became known as the Churchill method of game shooting. On his day he was said to be a superb shot and was certainly a great stylist; the pics in the above book show a very classy act indeed. As per ...



Abe books have some second hand copies ... [url=]http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=robert+churchill&sts=t&tn=game+shooting[/url]

Eug

You can make some pretty good buys these days on XXV's, especially in 12ga. Stubby 12's didn't stay in fashion, in spite of Mr. Churchill's efforts. But that period of time--between the wars--was one of intense competition in the British gun trade. They lost a lot of clients in the war, and some of those clients' guns ended up on the secondary market. Prior to WWI, anything with barrels shorter than 28" (and 30's were also very common) were quite unusual. So offering short-barreled guns was one way to tap into a new niche in the market. The 2" 12ga also came out of that same period. So did (although not from the UK) the first really popular OU: Browning's Superposed.

Would a plain box lock for $3000 be a good price!?

I'd say any British-made Churchill (they had some guns made in Spain for them, and there are some other even cheaper guns that carry the Churchill name but have nothing to do with the Brit company) should be worth $3,000 if it's in good shape.

They did offer 25 inch barrels in the 1920's. They were badged as such with the trademark "XXV." I have a Churchill catalogue from 1922 and on page 26 of that catalogue they promote the 25 "XXV" inch barrel guns over several pages.

They offered 25 inch barrels on 12 gauges before WW l. But I don't think they were marketed/promoted as "XXV" though until after WW l.

A couple of different places in the book "The House of Churchill" it is stated that Robert Churchill began to experiment with 25 inch barrel guns in 1911.

"The House of Churchill" on page 104 calls the story (of the origin of 25 inch barrels XXV) of a gun having damaged barrels and being shortened to 25 inches as "most unlikely" and that Robert Churchill denied that rumor.

Another unique feature of the between the war Churchill XXVs, is the Churchill tapered rib. When you shoulder one of these beautiful guns, the tapered rib gives the illusion of longer barrels.

Nonetheless, I find the short barrels a little too easy to stop given the fact that most everything else I shoot is 30 or 32". I have been able to ameliorate that somewhat by using a weighted leather barrel guard.

Due to short barrels being out of fashion these guns, both boxlocks and sidelocks, sell at a significant discount given the quality of the workmanship.

Another "trick" in dealing with a gun with low (for the individual shooter) swing effort is to slide the front hand several inches further forward. This causes the shooter to make a considerably longer/larger body movement for the same amount of change in gun direction of point. Doesn't work for all as some shooters are really "ouchy" about having the front hand exactly so-so relative to the back hand.

DDA

Adding weight just under the muzzles can also help.It does
not have to look ugly.
Can be attached to under rib and contoured to rear.

Bob set the fashion for 25" barrelled guns with the "patent quick sighting rib" and no doubt much to his annoyance, other makers cashed in with cheaper knock offs.

I have a 25" Stensby boxlock ejector complete with appropriate rib, made in 1935 originally for a Captain Bennett. I rescued it as a widows gun some 25 years ago, a bit uncared for, but basically sound, in it's makers case. Although Stensby were a Manchester firm, Wisemans reckon it was one of theirs made in Brum and rebadged. He paid 23 Guineas for it. At 6 lbs and a couple of ounces your gun mount needs to be pretty good to avoid punishment. Anything heavier than Grand Prix and you know all about it.

The case had British Army shipping marks, and the story was that the good Capt. and his gun went out to Burma to fight the Japanese, but only the gun came home.

There was a time I could shoot it quite nicely, using something very like the Churchill method which relies on perfect timing; decrepitude has put an end to all that. Can't hit a barn when standing inside it now.

Eug

Not a 1920's but a great little gun and I also use it for skeet on occasion. Have the original case . 12 gage Regal.

Do all XXV guns have that marking on the barrels?

If the question is are all Churchill's with 25 inch barrels marked XXV the answer is No.

Hi all, well, here's my Churchill XXV, it's the Premiere Grade (Smith Pinless Action) in 12b made in 1927. Weight is 5lbs 14oz and a joy to carry and shoot. I can shoot a short barreled gun without any problems, just don't over think the length deal





Best,

Greg

Mine do


Bob

Early Gun? Looks as if it could be a back action.
Churchills made some lovely guns. Depending on all
factors, condition ,proof etc they can be great
value. They sold a good many guns ,so, can be found.

If that is the gun for sale on the Canadian forum then in my opinion it isn't worth close to that. In fact it is now at $1800.00 which is still more than I would pay.

Gunsaholic,

Yes that is the gun. Unfortunately the buyer is quite uneducated in doubles, cut barrels, wall thickness, damascus barrels and ultimately rather rude upon discovering his ignorance. His only saving grace is that after my discussion with him he dropped the price. I would have liked to see some pics but I don't think this fellow would be so inclined to send me some.

Tamid, pm me your email and I will forward you some pics if you wish.