Hello,

I have recently purchased a beautiful combination gun supposedly from Ferlach, Austria and said to be in a 16 guage over 7x57. The research on the proofs that I have done are not indicating that it is from Austria, but I'm very new at identifying proofs. What I've seen like crown over N, Crown over U indicate German Proofs, but I'll leave that to the experts.

I also have a possible issue the caliber. Although the barrel is stamped 7. mm / 57 The rifle will not close with a 7x57 rimmed cartridge. It won't even close with a firing pin protector.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

I'm new to this site, this is my first post and look forward to hearing from you. Thank You.

MJS
http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/runswithelk/library/?sort=3&page=1

You will need to post photos of the proofs.

It's a great combination, 16 and 7 X 57. My choice if I were to buy one. Hope you get it figured out. For elk and birds around: perfect.

Hi Canvasback,

Thanks for the reply. Can you assist me with posting the images I have. I can't find where to upload them on the post. Thanks.

MJS

Also, be advised that most Ferlach built drillings in 16 gauge have shorter than 70mm chambering- 70mm - 2.75"- If this is the case with your gun, you'll have to shoot 2.5" RST shells in it. Also, a drilling in 7x57 takes a different case that a 7x57 Mauser Bolt rifle-- Viel Gluck. Der Fuchs!!

I agree with RWTFs assessment. Additionally; I would highly recommend you take it to a gunsmith that can do a chamber cast. This will allow you to measure and determine for sure the actual chambering of your rifle.
Looking forward to seeing your pictures and there are several experts here that can help you out.
Jim

All German as it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in November 1919. Tube effort by WK(script) & AW & sourced from Schilling forge.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hi,

I have uploaded some photos to photobucket. The link should be at the bottom of this post. Please bear with me as I muddle through my first experience with the site. Looking forward to hearing from you.

MJS

http://s1378.photobucket.com/user/runswithelk/library/?sort=3&page=1[/img]

Can you post an image of load data on the side of the tube as well as the scattergun marks?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey! Cheers to you as well.

Hi Raimey,

I've been trying to locate a local smith to cast the chamber. Sorry it took me a bit to get back to you.

There's a photo of the Crown over N next to the ST.m.G over 14 on the website. I'm attempting to get a quality photo of the shotgun proofs where the circled 16 is. I'm having difficulty with the clarity of the proofs.

On a side note, this combo seems to have been re-chambered to a 2 3/4 inch shell. Is it possible that they re-chambered the rifle to fit an 8/57 JRS?

I'll keep working on the photo for the shotgun loads. Thanks!

MJS

Hi King Brown,

Thanks for your input. It may end up being an 8x57, but either way they both make for a great combination! Thanks.

MJS

MJS:

You shan't need a gunsmith for the chamber as it is most simple. Borrow indefinitely a wax candle from your significant other, then with a piece of papertowel & wooden dowel, push the paper within say 1/2 of the beginning of the rifling. I'd lightly lube the chamber and then ight the candle & let the wax drip until the chamber & rim is full. Bump it a time or two making sure the fluid wax settles. Let it cool and tap it out. Then you can use Cerrosafe or similar.

With 7,7mm plug gauge stamp & the 14 gramme bullet weight(14.7 grammes was the 0.318"/88 bullet weight), it is probably the 8x57 IR. Slug the bore to see.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Axle E. on 0.318" vs 0.323":

"Apparently the changeover was completed 1926. Jon Speed's book "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles", page 274, shows a table of cartridge dimensions agreed upon July 23, 1926 by the German arms and ammo manufacturers association. It shows new//old designations: 8x57IR // M88/8 mit Rand or M88B, 8x57I // M88N, 8x51 // M88/8 kurz or H, 8x57IS // M88/8S.
The German M1888 cartridge was loaded with a .318" 14.7gramm = 227grs (roughly 15gramm)round nose bullet. This was the standard/only hunting load up to WW1. The military S cartridge used a .323" 10g = 154gr pointed bullet that never became popular as a sporting load. In WW1 the German army changed to the sS = heavy pointed bullet for machine gun use, bullet weight 12,7g =196gr. This became the standard weight for both the I and S bores close to WW2. Up until after WW2 the I = .318" bullet was regarded as the sporting type, while the S-bore was the "military" one, used on Sporting rifles mostly for the "Magnum" loads to relieve pressures. Only the 1940 proof law introduced min-max dimensions and the strict differentiating between I and S bores. So take any rifle proofed for a 15g bullet to be an I bore. Also, any other commercial pre-WW2 8mm barrel, except you prooved otherwise by slugging the bore and making a chamber cast."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post277508


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Sorry, runswithelk. Would have been happy to help but just after I made that post I went turkey hunting. And came home empty handed. Oh well, 4:30 am tomorrow morning calls!

Raimey,

You're the man!

Ok, checking for clarity...

1. The wax procedure is to protect the chamber from the cerrosafe?

2. If I have lead from both .318 and .323 for reloading, can I somehow use those to slug the bore?

Thanks!

MJS

Hi Canvasback,

Between Raimey's assistance and Dietrich Apel's German Hunting Gun's website, I'm well on my way to figuring out what I have. It's not as it was represented when I purchased it, but it's going to be a deer, elk and turkey harvester for sure!

Good Luck tomorrow!

MJS

MJS:
I should have typed "Then again you can use Cerrosafe or similar." Just use one or the other but wax is typically handy for a cursory effort.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Single set trigger, lovely horn trigger guard bow & single Kersten. Sort of resembles a Kerner-Anson Greifelt.

Don't forget Brenneke slugs for the smoothbore tube.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A classic Bockbüchsflinte in a very good condition. Congratulation to this fine Gun!
Don't worry, be happy, it's even better than what it was represented for... And don't forget Raimeys advice: try the Brenneke slugs!
Of course it's 16/65, so you should load max. 16/67,6 cartridges!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Very Cool Gentlemen.

Thank you for all of your awesome comments and assistance. I'll let you know the results of the cast and bore slugging. Cheers and enjoy your day.

MJS

runswithelk,
In your first post, you said it wouldn't close on a 7x57 case. Contrary to popular belief, the 7x57 is not simply a necked down 8x57. As in Axel's comments, posted by Raimey above, the 8x57 is based on the M88 case. The 7x57 case is known as the M93 case, which has a head diameter larger than the M88 case(nominal .468"vs .473").Rim diameters and thickness are also different between the two. The bore diameter of 7.7mm is pretty tight, but is often seen in commercial barrels. If when you slug the bore, you find a groove diameter smaller than .318", I wouldn't be overly surprised. The chamber neck would have been cut large enough for a .318" bullet( maybe larger)and will be perfectly safe with commercially available 8x57IR ammo, such as S&B. Enjoy your very fine gun, it will give many years of good service.
Mike

It's not a gun from Ferlach, it's a "Bockbüchsflinte" made in Suhl, Germany pre WWII. Gunsmith was August Wolf (AW), barrelmaker was Wilhelm Kelber (W.K), using Krupp steel.
The rifle cal. ist 8 x 57IR (7,7/8,07mm), Nitro proofed with 14,7g (227gr) steel jacked bullet.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input on the combo. Yeah, when I bought the firearm, I was told it was a Walter Outschar, 16 Guage 2 3/4 over 7x57R. I was curious so I loaded in a 16 guage shell and a 7x57R round. Well, of course, it wouldn't close. I had already done some investigation on the stamps and proofs and it started to become clear that the combo was not as represented. That's when I joined this forum. You folks have been excellent help. I certainly appreciate everyone's input. Thank You.

Hi Ger,

Now that's incredible! Thanks for the info on the gunsmith and barrelmaker. I was hoping someone would know those initials. Any chance you know what O.W. 448 means?

Thanks for your input!

MJS

Was not made in Suhl & not by August Wolf. Small probability exists for tube effort by Adalbert Wolf but when sourcing along family lines is considered, more than likely the mechanics were Otto Wilhelm & Alfred Wilhelm. Negative on Wilhelm Kelber but the truth may lie with a mechanic like Willie König. With the single K, the K mechanics may lie with the Klett Klan.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Other possibilities for AW might just be:

Albin Wahl of Zella Sankt Blasii, A.R. Weißheit of Mehlis, Alfred Werner, Adalbert Wolf, Albert (Wilhelm??) Wolf and then there's August Wagner.





What dims might have you attained?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

>>>Was not made in Suhl & not by August Wolf.<<<
Why? I think it was. On the barrel is seen a S in a rhombus, also a sign for Suhl. On my Drilling from the same time the letters AW and on the right barrel "August Wolf" and on the left barrel "Suhl". My uncle (born 1899) told me for a long time that AW stands for August Wolf.
On my Drilling 633, it stands for proofed June 1933, therefore I think 637 stands for proofed in June 1937.
The scripted letters W.K stands definitely for the "Rohrmacher", barrelmaker Wilhelm Kelber, in another thread you have also written by your own.

Zella St. Blasii don't exist since 1919, Zella-Mehlis is the name of this city since this time.
Albert Wilhelm Wolf (A.W.Wolf) is a gunmaker family existing up to this time, more than 100 years old.

Good Morning Gentlemen,

It appears determining the gunmaker might be a more daunting task than I originally anticipated, but that's kind of the fun of it! Thanks for all your input.

According to the chamber cast I made, the dimensions seem very similar to an 8x57. I have yet to find some soft lead to slug the barrel, so I am still uncertain whether it's .318 or .323.

Does anyone have any tips on how to determine actual shot shell length? In looking down the bore with a dial caliper, I have compared it with another shotgun stamped 16/70. The caliper seems to end at the same length, but the angle makes it difficult to be sure.

Thanks again for all of your help.

MJS

It's absolutely shure, the caliber is 8x57IR. By this caliber it gave long time confusion between 8x57IR ( 7,7/8,07mm) and 8x57IRS(7,89/8,20mm)written down by RWS handbook Nuremberg 1940.
I use the caliber 8x57IRS and on the box of ammo is written:
"ATTENTION! Only for barrels with the larger S-caliber bores (Bore.310in.,Groove.323in.)
In this book from 1940 aren't any laborations for 8x57IR.
This gun by Aug. Wolf normally takes caliber 16/65 for shot shells in this era, the length is 60mm when unfired

I can tell you who this example was not made by & that is August Wolf of Suhl as this example was made in Zella Sankt Blasii-Mehlis area. And this example dates exactly to the end of WWI so Zella - Mehlis may have been consolidated by the time of the date of proof.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

S in a Chevron denotes tube sourcing from the Schilling forge. Indeed, Wilhelm Kelber did use a script WK but not like this one. August Wolf would not have sent his wares to the Z-M proofhouse unless there was a renovation @ the Suhl proof facility, which was about 3 years later. Z-M used a ledger number as the last number in their proof sequence & it notes the total number passed for that month.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Subject sporting weapon with Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis mechanic WK initials.




Wilhelm Kebler Suhl mechanic initials.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

What's now?, nothing to q.e.d.

No q.e.d. or quid pro quo, only that WK initials in Suhl does not equal WK initials in Zella-Mehlis. From the images, they are not the same, run them thru an optical correlator.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Also, Wilhelm Kelber's initials of WK seldom if ever have punctuation.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse