Starting a new thread on behalf of Robe763 with more pictures of his new acquisition. If the gun is what it appears to be, I'm sure you'll agree it's a remarkable find.

Nice gun and even better in 16ga. !

According to Robe763, the serial numbers on both barrels match the number on the receiver. I'll let him respond from here on when he has a chance.

More photos are coming.

Steve,
Certainly rare, and unique, but definitely not nice. That gun is rough, borderline too far gone. Would take a LOT of work($$$)to get it back into decent shape, but even then would be an obvious salvage.

Sad to see.
JR

Underneath the...patina...the barrels might look like this; another EE with Herringbone or Remington "Ohonon 6 S.J."





more likely Chine like this DE



or possibly "Pieper P."



Refinished by Brad Bachelder

Drew is on it here. I was just about to recommend --

http://www.mastergunmakers.com/

No safe queen, but I see a sound gun that has been neglected, but not badly abused, and has a lot of potential. Many of the pins and screw heads look untouched and the few screw slots that are buggered aren't terrible. The wood isn't broken and the stock is uncut. Some pics make it look oil soaked and some not so much. I'd be delighted to find something like this from what I see so far. Definitely worth saving, and I don't think it will end up being a money pit. The sight beads are in a slightly different position, so hopefully that isn't an indication that a barrel has been shortened.

Thanks for everyone's help and information provided so far. I disagree that this gun is far from gone, especially one this rare and unique. Yes it's worn and has been used as it was made to do. Will it look like it did when it left the factory? No. But I have seen others in much worse shape than this brought back to life to be enjoyed again as it was built to do. I have no doubt that this gun can be and will be more than worth the cost to give it life again.

BTW: this may be what is left after barrel finishing of the fused 'JP' of J. Pire & Cie, a large munitions firm established in Liege in 1885, or rough forged tube maker Jules Pirard-Ancion or Jacques Pirotte & Fils.

I agree that this gun can be saved and is well worth saving. Here's some excellent advice from the original Thread on this Remington:



Unfortunately, there are a lot of gunsmiths out there who could make this gun worse. Careful consideration is needed. I hope you'll keep us posted.

If this was asked I missed it. What is the internal condition of the barrels?
Jim

John,
I guess I see the potential....if it was mine it would get a sympathetic restoration. A trip through the ultra-sonic cleaner first, some gentle cleaning of both wood and metal and then decide. It really does not look that bad to me. I take them in to the shop in far worse condition fairly often. That gun might end up looking pretty nice with a bit of elbow grease. The only thing that looks to have deep corrosion is the heel plate.
Steve

I'm in the process of trying to get the pictures of the inside of the barrels. I will have Canvasback post them when I get them

You guys are a lot more optimistic about this gun than I am.

The wood is badly shrunken away from the metal everywhere, or perhaps sanded away in an old refinish. Proud metal is bad news.

The checkering would require a magician to bring back. The gap where the forend iron meets the receiver suggests a lot of bad wear, near ramshackle.

I don't know how you fix all that, but some things aren't fixable. If the bores are cratered, well...
JR

I think the wood is fine for the most part, maybe cracked internally at the head but not beneath the metal in the vast majority of places. I would first clean that checkering and most likely leave it alone. The stock the same, you would be shocked what a good cleaning can reveal. The fore end gap could be caused by several things but the most likely scenario is that the lugged popped loose and was not set in the proper place, an easy fix. If it is wear that is an easy repair as well. The bores are a different matter, there is only so much that can be cleaned up in regards to pitting. These old American doubles often had thick walls and that sure does help. I would not attempt to make this gun look new, just clean it up a bit.

Nice old Remington. Thank goodness I don't own it!...Geo

I would like to buy this gun if it is for sale. Call me if for sale. Terry 740 678-8106

Just out of curiosity, what would you be willing to pay for this fine piece, Terry?
JR

I would like to find out what he wants for the gun if for sale then talk.

In my opinion this piece is well worth saving, albeit by putting it in the correct hands first and foremost. After that, I've personally seen guns in far far worse condition brought back to life. But to each their own opinions. My opinion, beautiful piece, certainly a rare piece and very deserving of some attention. I would most definitely like to put it into my collection.

Herschel used to call a piece in this condition "just an old brown gun."

I've gone back and looked at it several times, and I still cannot believe how bad it is in comparison to how much you guys think of it, especially you, Steve, whose opinion I hold in the highest regard. Even got a potential buyer.

Guess I've become too jaded in my old age. Then, afaic, there are only three things that matter with vintage doubles: condition, condition, and condition.
JR

I think it has a lot going for it if the barrels are good and not cut down. If not cratered and still solid ribs and good chokes it can be restored to any level your check book can stand. If the barrels are toast then the gun is also.

While others may not wish to own it I would love to come across a Remington 1894, 16 Gs. two barrel set. Better yet to have money left over to enjoy it.

I suppose the only three things that matter are condition condition condition if your aim is to put it in your safe and have the value increase.

On the other hand, if your aim is to use and enjoy one of the finest guns made in North America the way it was designed to be used, then other factors may come into play.

I'm with Jon.....I'd love to own this "old brown gun".And I'd shoot it!

The caveat of course is that the barrels are useable.

I am a believer in doing full restoration on some guns. Guns like this are worthy. If this stock is unserviceable, I'd have it restocked to my specs. Loose ribs are not a death nell. Some people may disagree with my approach, but I look at it from the perspective that I probably saved it from the scrap man. I have a few of them. If they don't shoot and function well, I don't have a place for them.

I am out of town and haven't been able to get pictures of the bores sent to me at this time. But I can say the barrel lengths appear to be 28" and 30" and they are not dented.
Knowing that there have been other guns in worse condition than this gun and they have been restored and put back in the field I find it odd that there are those that seem to think this gun is not salvageable, especially one that is this rare and unique. I share some of the same sentiments as Canvasback. This gun was made to be shot not hidden away in a safe. However, I understand maybe the thoughts others may have that would not want to restore a gun like this and risk taking it to the field only for something terrible to happen to the gun. I can appreciate both sides.
From the information I have been able to gather so far there has not been any other 1894 grade EE 16ga 2 barrel set surface, a potential one of a kind!

I am reminded of Terry Lubzynski's Optimus.

The facts of the matter are that it's a rare gun in well used condition.
All the rest is opinion.

The standard pattern of condemnation, counter offer, open offers, secret pm's, has already started.

Do not let anyone steal it from you.
Guaranteed you'll be quoted crazy money for resto work, as part of the effort to get you to part with it.
If you decide to move it, get a pro to clean it up, and sell it at auction after announcing it here.

You'll have many bidders. Me included.

I hate to say it, but I totally understood Robert Chambers on these kinds of things.

If it were my gun the first thing I'd do is have Brad Bachelder look at it. He's put some of my Remington's that were way worse than this one back in perfect working order. God, would I love to have it. To me there's nothing more satisfying than to take a American SxS and have it made to look new again and shoot it as it was intended to do.

I agree with you, Paul. This gun is in dire need of professional help. It just cannot be "cleaned up" and be used as is without it looking like the North end of a South-bound mule.

It is indeed a rare and unique item without question fully worthy of a total restoration if the barrels measure up. In my humble opinion, it would have to be re-stocked. The wood on this gun is not only bad, but very plain as well.

It's amazing what $5-6k will do. My vote for the job would be Dewey Vicknair. But then you're talking real money, because it would be as near perfect as human hands can achieve perfection.
JR

Julia's auction yesterday. All plus the kicker.

EE 16 $52,500

EE 12 $30,000

DE 12 $16,000

Since this gun is potentially of high value, I'd think you'd want to do a full photographic documentation of the condition before any work is done as well as document provenance.

With all of the caveats mentioned by others, this gun looks to be'restorable'.

While I am only a few years into this business and have never taken on the challenge of a gun of this quality, I have put guns in worse condition back in the field.

Great find. Hope to follow along as decisions are made concerning this old Remington.

"Julia's auction yesterday. All plus the kicker.
EE 16 $52,500
EE 12 $30,000
DE 12 $16,000"

Daryl
Thanks, as I didn't follow that auction; but if I'm not badly mistaken, those 1894's came from the estate of the recently deceased Andy Anderson. And also if I'm not mistaken, Andy's 16-bore EE was the gun featured years ago in the DGJ that had the word "Remington" spelled out within the Damascus pattern for the full length of both tubes. This gun was also in superb condition; so, and given that it is in all likelihood a "One Off", I'm not surprised at the final hammered price tag.

Those two EE's in the Julia's auction are museum-quality pieces that bear no comparison to this gun in any way, other than name, grade, and gauge.
JR

1889s
http://jamesdjulia.com/?s=Remington+1889...;meta_value=386

1894s
http://jamesdjulia.com/?s=Remington+1894...;meta_value=386

16g EE with 4 Iron "Turkish" damascus
http://jamesdjulia.com/highlights/?Auct=386&Cons=49530a1

12g EE with Herringbone
http://jamesdjulia.com/highlights/?Auct=386&Cons=49102a2

12g EE with new fangled steel barrels
http://jamesdjulia.com/highlights/?Auct=386&Cons=49530a2

Them "new fangled steel" barrels makes it an EEO-Grade.

Andy bought a 16-gauge DE-Grade at one of the Vintage Cups at Addieville, RI, 2012 or 2013, and I didn't find it in the Julia's auction?

I'd do a full restoration on the shotgun.
I've seen a lot more time & money spent on a lot less deserving.

I bought a very early DE 1894 12ga in worse shape waiting in line for a do-over now.

Does anyone know who the engraver might have been on this gun? I have started looking for initials hidden in the work. Thought possibly might be Joseph Loy.

Sure looks like Joseph Loy to me, none better. Being signed is rare though.

The owner has asked me to post a few more photos:

While the half-pistol grip seems to be far and away the most common on the C-Grades and below, this may be the first EE-Grade to show up with a half-pistol grip stock. All the E-Grades that Charles Semmer shows in his book are either capped pistol grip of straight grip. In the D-Grade section he shows one D-Grade gun with a half-pistol grip and states that most have either a capped pistol grip or straight grip.

Yep, Just another old junk gun.

Researcher I have a DEO in 16ga with the half-pistol grip (no cap)it has the horn buttplate that is on most all D and E grades. Terry

Until we see pictures it doesn't exist.

Does anyone have an actual photo of Joe Loy's touch mark that was used on his work that can be shared? I have read several posts of what it looks like but have yet to find anyone that posts a photo of the touch mark itself.

Recently one just sold at Julia's that belonged to a good friend. Here is the link to it. If the one shown in this post was in the condition his was in with two barrels you can imagine what the price would be.
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2390-386/
According to what is written in the description, only 3 EE grades in 16 ga. were ever made.

That gun can be saved, don't understand the naysayers.

Nothing with the condition would deter me ,I would trade my left pill for it !

Considering how rare that Remington is and how good a gun it is, go for it, lock, stock and barrel.

There is more than 3 E grade Remington model 1894 doubles in 16ga. I know of 5 counting this 16ga. I bet there is more but no many. Terry

Including this one I was only aware of 4 E grade 16's.

Anyone aware of a E grade two barrel set in any gauge? E grade non pistol grip?

Speaking of, didn't he point out that the pin was moved closer to the corner of the action on the 1894 Remington to improve its lock time and to stay competitive with Ithaca when they brought out their Emil Flues action with its lightning fast locks?

Chambers said many things.
I was referring to his views on the collectible gun market participants.

I sold (for a friend) an EE Damascus in 12 ga. maybe 7-8 years ago. Charles Semmer was pretty sure it was Loy engraved. He said this gun was the 38th known to exist. I think the settled price was $11,500. The condition was significantly better than this one but I think the market would assign a substantially higher price if it were a 16.

My rather hit and miss notes show --

EEO 121097 as a 12-gauge two-barrel set

EEO 116019 straight grip
EEO P132270 straight grip
EEO P136154 straight grip

In The Double Gun Journal, Volume Thirteen, Issue 3, page 59, Charles Semmer had an article on EEO 16-gauge 112429, in which he states "..of the known 32 EE guns, only four of them were built in 16-gauge. This one and one other have Ordnance Steel barrels, the other two are Damascus barreled." My notes show the other Ordnance barrel 16-gauge to be 110475, page 190 in Charles' book. One of the Damascus barrel 16-gauge EE-Grades is the late Andy Anderson's "Benjamen Torres gun" that just sold at Julias. Charles did an article on it in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Nine, Issue 2, Page 35.

I had it in my mind that the fourth E-quality 16-gauge was the Clyde B. Wells (Remington professional shooter) gun, 120142, but now checking my notes they say 12-gauge?!? So, what is the other known EE-Grade 16-gauge?

Thanks Researcher.

I traded for a 16GA EEO about 40 years ago with Thad Scott. When it arrived I looked down the barrels and they looked like a corduroy road. I thought about it and sent it back to Scott. I have regretted it ever-since. It is the one in Semmers book. The next time I saw it was at the Butterfield Auction in San Francisco where it sold for I think $10,000.

I have an extra set of 12 GA EEO barrels I bought from Chadick's about 30 years ago. Charlie put me in touch with the owner of the gun the barrels came from a few years ago and I offered to sell him the barrels for a reasonable sum but he was not interested and I have not heard from him since. These were Krupp barrels by the way. I have since mated these barrels to a CE action and forend and they fit perfectly with no fitting required. I lucked out there as I did not want to modify them in any way.

I saw one in Springfield Missouri in the early 1990s in a pawnshop. It had a round semi pistol grip, and the feature that stood out to me was on the bottom it had a red stag or an elk engraved. The price was $300. At the time I did not know that Damascus barrel guns could be used, they were just old guns like my grandfather used, and though he shot high brass magnums through a Damascus gun, it was noted that he went to church every Sunday. Much later after Charles Semmer's book was published, I stopped by the pawn shop when I was in Springfield, and asked about the shotgun. I was told that it was now in the shop owners " museum". I know, Researcher, no pic no gun, but I wrote to Semmer about this one.

Randy, was it a 16 or a 12?

It was a 16. I had just got interested in the 16 and the 16ga society. Instead of buying the Remington, I bought a 16 Parker DHE with ruined barrels that I sent to Kirk Merrington.

That's a great line, Randy.

SRH

It was a W Richards 12 ga hammer double- $5 from the Sears Roebuck catalog. I'm 54 and I remember him loading his coat pocket with those blue Peter's shells that the brass was half the shell and take the dogs and go fox hunting.