I don't find these often, the engraving divides people - they seem to either love it or hate it.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=1&theaterWhat's your view? Click on each photo to move to the next.
This one is especially original and not messed about, dates from 1912.
Being a man I'm partial to bold strong flavored concepts. I don't mind germanic, belgian spanish engraving styles/patterns and would not mind owning this gun. Lots of well-heeded fellas do not like their made in London game guns being confused with those of Northern Spain therefore this one isn't going to be their "cup of tea".
I like it, the only thing that caught my eye is the H&H name seems understated compared to the rest of the engraving, then again, that may have been intentional.
What do you think ?
Makers always used to put their names on the locks unobtrusively. Having BIG LETTERS inlaid in Gold is a bit like wearing a T-shirt with DKNY or DOLCE & GABANNA emblazoned across the chest, instead of on a discreet label on the inside. All that cam e about with new money in the 20th century, mostly after WW2.
Thanks for showing it Digg. I like the uniqueness, maybe it originally headed to the US. I may be seeing it wrong, but very little seems to flow, a little harsh as a whole. Up close, I think many of the cuts are a bit coarse. I'd agree, seems to have a German feel. I wonder if an apprentice got to do some of the fill in scratching, the carved fences seem to have been done by a more experienced and sure hand. Thanks again.
It doesn't do it for me - I can appreciate the work but don't think it looks attractive on a gun. Wouldn't be something I'd buy.
Not for me. I'm not in to the gothic nature of the winged beasts/animals.
I like it, how much would depend on the price.
I'm a rose and scroll man myself, but i would not kick that one out of the gun rack for eating crackers. Interesting.
To me it seems to be a combination of English scroll engraving and Teutonic deeply incised engraving. The absence of consistency would bother me. However shooting it wouldn't bother me at all. A little duct tape and everyone would think it had a coin finish!
Jim
I love it. Baroque style with gargoyles take us back to the early eighteenth century. Some of the finest architecture in Europe is decorated in this style.
Not one they made for stock. Still the buyer gets what he wants and those after him get to speculate what he was thinking of. One thing clear is that the owner(s) have used that gun a lot so they must have been happy with it. Just be glad that style engraving did not catch on and replace the rose and scroll.
I like scroll better, too.
When I look at it I keep thinking the pattern would look better with some sort of border. It does not seem finished, somehow...
Interesting, though. Glad I saw it.
I think it's totally cool. Wish it was mine.
I prefer the standard Royal pattern, but then I'm a bit conservative at times.
At first I did not care for it but the more I look at it the more I like it. Even more so than the Rose and scroll.
I like the "green man" or uh woman?...Geo
The gargoyles look a lot better than many of the flying sweet potatoes that "grace" a lot of the American classics. It think the theme is very well executed. I find more about it to like than to dislike. Thumbs up.
SRH
Love the sides and top. Hate the bottom. Gargoyle w/huge knockers is a bit much for me.
I think it was made for a man--a real "he man", bold. None of the sissy tiny rose and scroll here! Just straight up. No mistaking this for another mans gun. And the work involved in executing the engraving and carving of the fences deserves praise.
Like it. Always liked Green Men.
About 20 years ago the cover of Shooting Sportsman (March/April 1996) featured a similar style of engraving being done on a new H&H, mythical beasts and such, the article was called A BEASTLY BUSINESS by Douglas Tate and described the H&H Griffin Gun. It included the original color drawings for the engravings.
I fell hard for it and it was one of the things that kindled an interest in fine doubles. I would love to own Dig's gun, I especially like the Green Man on the floorplate.
Joe Wood has it spot on - the baroque style is exactly that - stylised, rather than lifelike - this was Holland's very top of the range at the time and the engraver would have been Top Boy.
I sold one in 16-bore a few years back, it had been made for a princess of the Afghan royal family.
The 'Royale de Luxe' seems to have had two slight variations on the engraving theme - one with more birds, the other with more gargoyles. I find the birds rather nicely done and the gargoyles cheeky and surprising. You would never be short of something to look at with this in your hand.
It has divided opinion, as I said it would. I remember offering the last one to a client who said "Why would anyone put that on a gun?" the next one said "I want it".
I think the "characters" are interesting, those elements of the style don't bother me. As for execution, much of the scroll has pretty ragged lines, especially in the tight curves, but the graver also wanders in some of the broader sweeps.
Jay
I guess it's sold then. Too bad, I really like it.
Agree with you on the execution, Chas, but, I would prefer the gun with 0% coverage engraving and blued to what has been done.
One tour through Graceland is enough to convince you that you can't buy good taste. This gun should be hanging on a wall at Graceland.
Best,
Ted
....this was Holland's very top of the range at the time and the engraver would have been Top Boy....
Theme, design and personal aesthetic preference aside, does this example appear to be technically executed to a high level. Some of the characters and primary scroll designs seem well done.
It appears to me that much of the fill in scroll, a good bit of the border, and most of the shading is pretty rough and crude appearing. It seems to have the look like there was a theme and a coverage percentage, but then maybe not the most adequate budget to execute like top of the line might be.
I haven't seen many examples myself, so maybe this is well done, top of the line. It just seems like H&H has put much cleaner looking engraving on many of their guns.
Can't say I'm struck by it very much.Don't really care for this style.Don't like the fences ,or the weird boobs on the bottom, yuck.
And, well it just doesn't seem like such great work, compared to other guns in this class & age, but perhaps that's cause I just don't really like the style.I'm sure it would be interesting to view hands on.
I really find the Belgian style with ribbands scroll n vines thru it very appealing, with the carved intertwined reed/rushy fences.
I always thought Francotte did a nice job on their fences.
I do like a gun with the Celtic knot work style,too, if well done.
Of course it's a very fine Gun, but if I had the price of a 1912 H&H, this wouldn't get me running to the phone
Thanks for putting up another cool gun though, Dig
cheers
franc
I remember some years ago coming across a pair in 16 bore with mythical beast engraving but I seem to recall the engraving being slightly more in relief. Not quite what I would order. Lagopus.....
Agree with you on the execution, Chas, but, I would prefer the gun with 0% coverage engraving and blued to what has been done.
One tour through Graceland is enough to convince you that you can't buy good taste. This gun should be hanging on a wall at Graceland.
Best,
Ted
Not sure if this is a celebratory event or not, but I have to agree with Ted. I recall a Fabbri SxS with similar myth crap by Galeazzi that started at $80K+ and was still begging for love at sub-$30K.
Can you imagine what people would say behind your back if you actually too that H&H out in public?
have a day
Dr.WtS
That also brought to mind the diligently suppressed memory of this horror. IIRC this theme was also splattered on a multi-gun set of Fabbri O/U's that I saw years ago at Vegas.
One just has to wonder what possessed ............?
http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-...de-shotgun.aspxhave a day
Dr.WtS
When this was made (1912) the cost of a 'Royal' was 75 guineas. The Modele De Luxe was 100 guineas. An example of this model was exhibited at the 1900 Paris exhibition as an example of the best of the gunmaker's art.
The 1910 catalogue describes the de Luxe thus:
These weapons , whilst containing all the points of our very best guns have specially selected stocks and in addition are finished in an exceedingly artistic manner combining a best gun with a work of art. Selected workmen of great skill are employed on these guns and extra time is spent on hem in every department in order to secure the desired effects. Our Modele de Luxe guns and rifles represent the highest standard of modern unmaking yet reached in this orang other country. Specially suitable as presentation guns.
Birds, dogs, naked ladies, gargoyles, Indians, trains, oak leaves, oil wells, Biblical scenes........no thank you. Tight scroll, the kind that made the old guys go blind....OK.
....this was Holland's very top of the range at the time and the engraver would have been Top Boy....
Theme, design and personal aesthetic preference aside, does this example appear to be technically executed to a high level. Some of the characters and primary scroll designs seem well done.
It appears to me that much of the fill in scroll, a good bit of the border, and most of the shading is pretty rough and crude appearing. It seems to have the look like there was a theme and a coverage percentage, but then maybe not the most adequate budget to execute like top of the line might be.
I haven't seen many examples myself, so maybe this is well done, top of the line. It just seems like H&H has put much cleaner looking engraving on many of their guns.
Although I somewhat like the motif, I tend to agree with Craig's opinion.
BTW, why would the "model" be written in French "Modéle de Luxe"?
JC
I did not know that there were hermaphrodite gargoyles... from old San Francisco architecture I assume? Thumbs down.
Sometimes there is no accounting for taste. Some of the figures look like cartoon characters. Are you sure this gun is an H & H or engraved by them?
Come on, man. For sure it's a Holland Royal. You don't think Diggory Hadoke knows what a Holland Royal is???? I love it. It is awesome IMO. It's old fashioned English engraving.
Thanks Buzz
Did this gun belong to Aleister Crowley?
Somehow, I don't think it works, especially as a gun from a flagship British Gunmaker. It looks like a stab at a Teutonic feel, but overall I have to say it fails.
Of course, if someone were to give it to me I'd welcome it!
i love it, a very talented artist did this work. Teutonic?looks like an early style mostly associated with muzzle loading guns.difficult and beautiful job.mc
Certainly interesting, although my tastes are more conservative. It could be worse, it could be Eric Clapton playing his guitar done in Bulino.
I saw the gun you are referring to at William Evans a few years ago, Ken. Not the best choice was it?
18 May 2014
"Small Bore," thank you for bringing this combined example of the gun-maker's and engraver's art to our attention, and for providing the opportunity to assess the artist's work, as well as to perhaps consider the artist's references and motives.
First, I appreciate and like this gun's very interesting and intriguing appearance. I am one of those who lavishes much attention on fine guns that are engraved. In fact, all my guns are engraved. From my perspective, though, one's appreciation is enhanced and especially informed by an understanding of the historical setting in which the gun was completed, which might also provide a reference, some rationale or motive behind the artist's work that is before us, thereby happily edifying the curious.
Several historical events and current popular culture seem met in your instant work. We know about the matter of a specially prepared gun exhibited at an important event. We know this is 1912, and that there is an ongoing fascination with the Near and Middle East, driven by archaeological discoveries in the those regions. News concerning the latest discoveries by famous British field archaeologists is proudly disseminated worldwide to an avid readership. Ancient art, representing many cultures, is in vogue, and is finding new forms of expression.
Not to be forgotten, however, is the influence on the period's gun-makers of W. W. Greener's "St. George Gun," an artistic achievement that came to the attention of gun-makers and the general public alike in 1907. Its trumpeted completion was also meant as something of an Edwardian period gauntlet, a direct challenge to the other hotly competing gun-making firms of the era. Ask yourself: What figures are depicted on the St. George gun? Well, at least one is a ferocious dragon, that beast in the process of being slain by St. George.
The subject Holland & Holland gun's high relief metal carving and engraving patterns appear to combine current influences of culture and business, as well as other references from that time. While culture simply finds expression wherever it can without effort, the practical nature of a gun-maker's business compels a need to focus its competitive efforts to advantage against other gun-makers that are competing within the same very narrow and specialized marketplace, where it is of vital importance to differentiate, as well as to ceaselessly promote, their respective though too similar products.
I appreciate and admire the Near and Middle Eastern-inspired gargoyles depicted on the Holland & Holland gun: the winged lion, winged lions with eagle beaks or the classical 'gryphon,' and scaly winged-serpents, variously interpreted as symbols of kingship, majesty and the devil, rendered here in the aesthetics of both Celtic and Gaelic art. Each of these separate forms of ancient artistic and cultural expression is found incorporated in the great works of Gothic architecture, whether employed as practical waterspouts, or in the alternative, as talismans for or protectors of the superstitious wanting to ward off the unwanted attentions of evil forces. Granted, the morphed female and male grotesque bottom of the action body is an odd choice for the engraver, and perhaps a very bad choice, depending on individual taste, yet it too is in keeping with similar grotesques carved into the building stones of High Gothic cathedrals throughout the U.K and Europe in particular.
I greatly admire the Holland & Holland's carved fences, and have bought guns partly because of their beautifully carved fences, and would be more delighted to see this entire work deeply carved as well; but that is not what is seen here. The figures and surrounding depictions are typically large, in the usual Holland & Holland fashion. However, the overall work appears to have been hastily achieved, which haste is to some degree evidenced by a near lack of adequate-to-scale background or filler, as if the time clock had run out, and the piece had to go to the client or boss on or before a date certain. I believe this work was done by an outworker and not in-house.
In this period, it was not unusual for a gun-maker to write a note, say, on a Tuesday to the outside engraver that (I paraphrase) would read, "Please provide this much, in terms of value in pounds and/or shillings, of your usual engraving pattern, and return the engraved piece to me, the gun-maker, by no later than Friday." Now, imagine the reaction of the maker's outworker or employee when asked to produce something wholly out of the ordinary no later than three or four days hence. Do not forget that during this period even skilled labor is cheaper than materials, so if the laborer cannot do the job and will not be paid, someone else is waiting to take your place and be paid for the work. Panic ensues. Sketches are quickly drawn, based on whatever references are to be had, which may include the neighborhood cathedral, and the work is hurriedly commenced and just as hurriedly completed. The completed work is found acceptable by the maker, with a sigh of relief, and the gun timely goes on display in the exhibit hall.
Again, I very much like your engraved Holland & Holland gun. It is quite different from the standard productions of the era's other firms, and therefore unique. I suspect, too, that the subject engraving is appreciably smaller than is suggested by your photographs, particularly from the closeups, which surmise is confirmed by the forearm photographed in your hand, which provides a more correct visual scale of the engraver's work.
Best regards,
Edwardian
I saw it too Ken61 !!!???
Why ? best, Mike
Edwardian, interesting reflections. The stylistic nod to the gothic is clearly there - but I see French baroque being more typical - it seems that the model started with the 1900 Paris exhibition and that perhaps explains the French wording for the' Modelle de Luxe', which was carried on. However, I think the stylised 'roughness ' of the engraving is just that - it is not an indication f an engraver saving time or money - the extra 25 guineas difference between the Royal and the de Luxe is mostly accounted for in the extra cost of the engraving. While not to the taste of many, it is as it is by design, not for any other reason.
Brooding is the word that comes to mind. The engraving plus the dark surface finish (assuming it is a remnant of the original), makes me yearn to see a totally unengraved coin finished H&H Royal, just for some visual relief.
Having seen so much engraving, and so many engravers at work, I suffer from sensory overload and became blase about gun embellishment. The cheerful Blanch house engraving style is about as heavy as I care to go, if at all.
Fair enough , Dig.
It certainly provoked some response...
And, if I may ask,what's the price range for something like that?
I think I saw a DR by Alex' Henry done in similar style (DGJ,or online, not in hand), it was a top maker , anyhow.
It seems silly, but it seemed more appropriate to me on the rifle, than on the Gun, lol.
Cheers
franc
Not sure what this one will end up at - the last one I sold was not as good; a 16-bore with sleeved barrels. It made £15,000.
It came in from Australia and I have yet to be given a price from the owner.
I knew it would provoke some divergent opinions - it seems many on the board had not seen one before. I hope it proved interesting.
Underside Gargoyle makes me have to say..."No".
Hmmmm. After these last several posts I began to ponder about the historical context of this gun. Given that the gun was made during a time of Germanic ascendancy (Franco-Prussian War to WWI, 1870-1914) this may explain the preference for a more "Continental" type of deeper-relief engraving. This was also the time of the resurgence in the interest of mythology in general, (also due to many of the other things happening at the time alluded to in the previous posts) inspiring the creation/construction of things like the Neuschwanstein Castle in Bavaria. So, we have a deviation from the more traditional type of English engraving to one that could easily be called today "Pop Culture" inspired. Given those reasons, it's entirely possible that the engraving was probably not seen quite as unusual at that time compared to now, but might have been considered more "Trendy". Given the general theme of the engraving, I suspect that the figure on the bottom was a "Harpy" rather than merely a grotesque, ready to snatch up an evildoer and carry them off to the Erinyes. I totally understand, given the theme, why there would be Griffins/Gryphons on the sides and fences, (usually depicted with more bird-like heads, as far as the ones on the sides) but the reasoning behind the goat-horned fellow on the lower bottom part of receiver and the trigger guard kind of perplexes me. Could it be a Satyr or a Faun, or possibly Pan? (the God of hunting, among other things) Or, even Beelzebub himself?
I'd like to know who commissioned this engraving. It'd probably explain things quite a bit. I like the Aleister Crowley reference,(Thelema Mysticism) that type of mystics were certainly around at that time. I actually met some Agape members, many years ago when I lived in California, although as I remember, none of'em were the "Big Three" shotgun types..
Down in the peasant class I'd rather have The regular Royal scroll engraving........but ... but for the right price I could shoot it.
I'm with you there on both counts monty.
Cheers
franc
PS, Monty, are you a hands on jeweler?
I have a cherished Indian silver/turquoise ring (Navajo ?) from Arizona that has, after 30 years of never taking it off,has a bad flat spot on the finger hoop..would like to see if I could fix it will some delicate tapping on a mandrel type deal....could you help via e mail?
franc
Check it out - similar engraving on an earlier H&H:
http://www.collectorebooks.com/gregg01/shotgun3/Lot-3440.htmGuess SB's was more than a one off.
OWD
I absolutely love the bold, classical engraving of these guns!
It's a "no" for me, a definite "no". Second, third, or fourth look didn't help change my mind.
owd..I'm find that gun you posted to be better executed than Digs one,a little tamer perhaps, but comes off , to me, as better work...
cheers
franc
owd..I'm find that gun you posted to be better executed than Digs one,a little tamer perhaps, but comes off , to me, as better work...
cheers
franc
Yes, not as coarse as the first, less random variation in the curves of the scroll.
Dr. Sane,
Viewing the link to the NRA site you posted resulted in a touch of mild nausea for me, that brought back a repressed memory of the board in it's old, free wheeling days, when you could post anonymously, and we were having a discussion about a high grade LC Smith that one of the regulars (Beans?) put up, that featured absolutely perfectly executed scroll, and Warner Brothers-esc cartoon images of dogs and birds engraved and placed in that same scroll, looking completely foolish. The only things missing were Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, and a little bit of slap stick, like, say, Bugs hitting one of the dogs over the head with a frying pan.
You agreed with me that day, also. It was a long time ago.
I wonder about guys that get giddy over hermaphrodite gargoyles.
Best,
Ted
I believe that ChuckH was the one that identified that LC as belonging to the "Pumpkin" school of American engraving.
Yeah, long time ago
have a day
Dr.WtS
Not having read all the posts on this tread forgive me if I repeat a thought that the engraving brings to mind that of the Scales gun featured in the Shooting Sportsman a few years back, ?
Agree on the scales gun. It turned out to be from Holloway as I recall. Saw it in the British auction some years ago and then x chisels had his hand on it.
Actually found the picture in the Shooting Sportsman and there are similarities . The article also shows a Midland Gun ad with a sidelock engraved in same style so it might have been a trend although I do not recall seeing on British made guns .other examples .
Not to hijack the thread onto the Scales gun but it does show that "recorded history " often repeated can be wrong.
The theme was used on many high grade Hollands. there are slight variations on each gun.
I sold this Holland last year. I hope the new owner doesn't mind the posting.
Cool gun, PM. What caliber? And is that an Indian Royal crest on it?
Thanks,
OWD
Ted Schefelbein,
I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
Cool gun, PM. What caliber? And is that an Indian Royal crest on it?
Thanks,
OWD
Yes out of India. 375fl.
There is an article titled "The Dragons of Bruton Street" in The Gun Digest 1986/40th Edition showing a somewhat similar style engraving on an H & H Modele De Luxe 280 Flanged.
Thanks for sharing. Its bold for its time. I like it, but wouldnt order it myself. Is there evidence of the engraver or the owner on the ledger? - not sure how detailed the H&H ledger is.
tim
This gun must have been ordered by a bisexual.
Tits and dick is over the top for me.
Bulino Clapton, or preferably Emerson on the moog would be hell of a lot better!
Vernal