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Posted By: montenegrin Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/01/12 01:32 AM
I was reading that gunmaker Johann Sigott of Ferlach was awarded Grand Prix and Gold Medal at the International General Trade Exhibition that took place in London in 1932. I wonder who were his competitors and what was the Ferlach gun that made such an impression?

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/04/12 08:15 AM
TTT - let's give it another try...?

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: John Can. Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/04/12 01:06 PM
Jani - Not necessarily a gun, it could be an innovation, for example H. Pieper got the same award for introduction of the mono-block in 1889? (I think). Some of his SxSs have this bragging right on the mono-block, just happen to have one of those. So what became an almost norm in gun production after 1932?,I'm no expert but off the top of my head "ejectors" / some such gizmoe comes to mind. Perhaps the more knowledgeable will jump in here. FWIW --- John can.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/05/12 12:23 AM
Thanks John, that's a good point.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/05/12 04:41 AM
m0ntenegrin
1932 saw England [indeed the world!] in the grip of recession.In order to try and stimulate business a series of international trade shows took place in the U.K.circa 1920-1930s. Many were held at Wembley a site for many such exhibitions, commencing with the Empire Exhibition which I believe was held circa 1925.
A check of the records of companies such as Purdey,Holland and Holland,Greener etc; dose not show any evidence of their participation in any exhibition held circa 1932. For example in 1932 Purdey,s new gun sales fell to 32 and to a mere 6 in 1934!
These established companies had little to gain in this era from particpation in exhibitions because their potential clientel was well aware of their capabilities.In fact they might even lose out to lesser known competion!
There must be records in the U.K. that would list participants and awards for the 1932 exhibition,but like you Ihave not been able to locate same.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 11/07/12 08:08 AM
Roy,
Another goos explanation. Thank you.

With kind regards,
Jani







Sigott-Drall-Rifled-Bohrung - More than likely

Sigott scattergun with odd addressing of interior. Jani made a capital find & I'll let him tell his tale. We've had a side-bar conversation going & Axel & Shotgun Charlie don't think it to be the Sigott variant but offer little as to any other explanation. What you see is all we know for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
If the inside of the bore is what I think it is, Sigott was some 47 years too late smile
Do tell as I wait w/ bated breath.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Here's the gist of what Jani found:

He claimed a combination of best shot pattern at 50 paces and accurate single projectile use, using Sigott's own bullet construction (somewhat like a short Minie bullet with two large grease grooves). Johann Sigott charged 20 crowns (a cost of an imported Iver Johnson 38 cal. break-open revolver) for this magic rifling done on your bad shooting gun.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
That means I was right in my guess that it was a sort of a ball-and-shot thing. Sigott could've made a pile on it from 1885 to 1899, when the Paradox was still covered by Fosberry patent. But in 1932, I guess, a gold medal of a trade fair was about the only gold he could've made out of this design.
Hump T Dump:
Have you seen anything akin in Russia?

I believe the info Jani located gave the 1907/1908 period when Johann Sigott began his wonder boring. With it being a Johann Sigott tube and adverts that Sigott had an expensive wonder method for addressing your tubes to make them pattern better, the example just about has to be Sigott's design. He advertises to modify your tubes so it must be a slight alteration to the tube thickness.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Got to be some machinists/tool & die guys in the viewer-ship. Anyone want to make a stab as to how it was cut, coarse, fine, single pass, chiseled out with a hammer?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Hump T Dump:
Have you seen anything akin in Russia?



No.

Given how much attention Russian sporting press gives to ball-and-shot guns (what with limitations on rifle ownership), and how much stuff has been brought in after WW2, it tells me that there weren't very many such guns made.
Posted By: Humpty Dumpty Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 02:06 PM
My previous post has not been completely accurate. I did a quick Google search and discovered two Sigott guns with Sigott rifleing in Russia.
Here's one

Interestingly, it's a combination gun, with 9.3x72 in the right barrel.
Follow the link to see pics of another
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/2/119537.html
Posted By: Humpty Dumpty Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 02:08 PM
As for the method of rifleing, I guess first the spiral grooves were cut, then straight grooves running parallel with the barrels were cut over them.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 02:46 PM
Excellent effort. So this would mean Johann Sigott would have either had a barrel making machine or had access to the Ferlach Consortium. So it is the right tube with the alteration having a single set trigger.




I can't really read the date but it appears to be either 1902 or 1908 with Not For Ball on the flats.




Imperial Eagle on top of the tubes reminds me of Novotny?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Birdog Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 04:32 PM
HD's Sigott guns with Sigott rifleing :

http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/007394/7394028.jpg

http://i2.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/007398/7398744.jpg
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 05:20 PM
Got a 403 Forbidden error but thanks for the effort. What might be the Russian website:

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 06:00 PM

Business end of some Johann Sigott combo-we're getting closer



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 06:06 PM











Looks like GLK or CLK

I don't think any of the above Johann Sigott Belgian sourced sidelock two barrel set has any special tube features but it along with other examples points to the fact that post WWI almost all gunmaking centres were not immune from sourcing the Belgian mechanics at Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Humpty Dumpty Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 06:53 PM
I could try to get in touch with the owner of the combo if necessary.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 07:12 PM
Sounds like a good idea but it would seem he only has questions when we are seeking answers.


Johann Sigott Ferlach Belgian sourced A&D Action Body - 1911, Note the Prima Krupp Gewehr Lauf Stahl stamp


Prima Gewehr Lauf Stahl Friedrich Krupp Essen




LLH on tubes



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/20/14 10:01 PM
Just to recap, get us back on track:





Fore & aft of 2 different Johann Sigott Ferlach sporting weapons. Everyone scared to comment?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/21/14 01:20 AM
By the way, the sidelock above is actually a false-plated A&D Action Body:







Most interesting. Can't take anything for granted

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/22/14 09:20 PM
I researched old Austrian hunting magazines a bit further and it seems that Joh. Sigott of Ferlach advertised his Drall-Rifled-Bohrung from about 1903 till WWI. His early advertisements show only shot pattern, then also a blunt bullet, and finally shot pattern and the Minie type bullet. No rifling type is specified, but maybe, or rather likely, it was modified along the years as well.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/22/14 09:27 PM
Thanks Jani for the extra effort. Any images that show the tube configuration we are viewing? A satisfactory number of examples exists that point to the fact that indeed this pattern is his as up till now no other maker's wares have been found with it although I'm sure some exists somewhere.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/22/14 09:45 PM
Raimey, no images nor other clue to the magic inside the bore in these advertisements. Sigott's heavy advertising for over a decade doubtlessly produced a fair number of orders so more will likely surface. By the way Sigott's effort seemingly triggered similar advertisements by other Ferlach makers.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/22/14 11:24 PM
Jani,

can you please tell me the german term for the Sigott barrel? How did he advertise it in german?

Thanks and kind regards,
Wolfgang
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/23/14 04:26 AM
Wolfgang,

From Waidmannsheil, 1914: Sigott-Drall-Rifled-Bohrung.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: JayCee Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/23/14 01:32 PM
Hello Jani,

The lead build-up in those barrels must be considerable, to say the least.

JC
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Grand Prix London 1932 - 06/27/14 06:27 PM
Hello JC,

I certainly agree with you. As with many things today, novelty was seemingly more important than any factual advantage.

With kind regards,
Jani
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