I just bought this shotgun it is definitely not a show piece. It is an under lever design and is in 14 bore with all English Birmingham proofs and no Belgium markings it also has CS stamped on the underside rib. I have seen many of the Belgian knock offs of Westley Richards but this one seems much higher quality and does not look like one. It has real engraving similar to my Liverpool Howdah. Has anyone heard of William Richards of Liverpool or have a gun by him? I only picked it up because it was interesting I know it is not a Westley.
I too have a W Richards bearing Birmingham proofs. Mine is a side lever with a single underbolt. Barrels also carry a 14 mark, but the chambers are 12ga. Gun was proofed prior to the chamber marks. It is in very poor condition, I keep it because it belonged to my Grandfather. I personally do not believe my gun is of the quality one would have suspected from one built by William Richards so have no idea as to by who or where it was built.
From your description yours sounds like a higher grade gun than mine, hopefully it was by William.
"W.Richards" was also one of the many names used by J.P. Clabrough & Bros. for their inexpensive 'hardware store' guns.
Steve;
Thanks for that info, this could well be what mine is. Do you have any info as to the dates Clabrough used the W Richards name. As mine does not have the chamber mark I presume it to be a pre 1887 gun. As I said it is a side lever (left side) opener with a single underbolt & no rib extension. It has back action locks with a round frame, Straight grip stock with long tang trigger guard & brass shield in lower stock. Originally had a tip insert of some kind in the splinter forend, the tip now gone. Though worn near smooth appears to have had reasonable quality checkering & some light scroll engraving. It does appear to have been a step or so above most of the Belgian made guns I have seen bearing this name, but still not a real high quality one. Might well indeed fit in with a lower grade Clabrough.
Markings are W Richards on each lockplate & then W Richards London Laminated Steel on the top rib.
W. Richards of London (and then of Liverpool) was founded by William Richards. They are still in business to this day and are of no immediate relation to Westley Richards.
W. Richards was a name used for knock-off guns in Belgium and sold in the Americas even before Westley Richards was well enough known to be a subject of "knock offs". So either they were making knock offs of the real W. Richards or they were just picking arbitrary Anglo names to give the product some esteem.
Here is a best grade English Made W. Richards of Liverpool gun that I've consigned with a gun shop. It was owned by a very wealthy Baronet in England and as you can see, it is a truly best gun not to be confused with Belgian hardware store junk.
http://coveyandnye.com/purveyor-of-fine-...ards-best-grade
I looked at my gun again and it is a side lever. I got an under lever also and mixed them up. I think me a 2 piper are talking about much the same gun. Could the C.S. Stamp on the under side barrel rib possibly be Clabrough and Sons? That would explain it looking better than a Belgian but still not a high grade gun. 2 piper does your gone have the C.S. between the chambers on the underside rib?
2-piper,
I have a copy of an 1886 job sheet from John P. Moore's Sons, New York that has "Clabrough's make, marked W. Richards, Laminated steel barrels, ..." for sale.
Lochlan;
The short section of under rib, about 2½" long, between the flats & forend lug is missing on my gun. It was that way when I got it, so have no idea if there was a CS mark there or not. It has the Birmingham provisional proof mark the two marks with crossed sceptors, one for definitive proof & the other the View mark, 14 & one other mark which I do not rcall what its supposed to be. It is stamped rather deep & left a small square depression in the bbls but I cannot decipher what if anything is in the bottom. These marks are on each bbl ahead of the flats, no marks on flats at all. The right bbl has a 3 stamped alongside the forend lug. Each action flat carries the view mark. Forend is a snap off. Bores currently measure .001"-.002" smaller than a 13ga as best as I can measure their rough condition. Prior to 1887 the gauges were not marked with the in between sizes as 14/1 so these may be very close to the original size considering the 12ga chambers.
Steve;
If you are able to post a pic of that Job Sheet I would like to see it also. That 1886 date would certainly be compatible with the proofs on this gun & its looking more & more like this may be what I have. I have no idea at what point in life my Grandfather acquired it or If he bought it new or used. He was born in the late 1860's after his Father had finihed his service to the CSA so would have been approaching 20 when this gun may have been built.
2-piper,
Contact me at schmjh@pacbell.net
Might be worth checking out with W Richards as he does have fairly comprehensive records of the Richards guns. Lagopus.....
I've owned 2 very nice BLE W.Richards guns, still have one, they're Birmingham made guns, both what I'd say were mid quality, not best but very well made and finished. The first was marked fishgate Preston on the top rib , the one I still own has been sleeved and doesn't have the original rib but it was also bought, in 1904, from the Preston shop. I contacted the 'new' W.Richards and they were very helpful and as is stated in the above post, they have a lot of records and information about the old guns.
Personaly, I've seen an English hammer gun of theirs, but not one of the Belgian guns so can't comment on them, I'd guess the name was never intended to fool people in to believing they'd bought a Westley Richards though. After all William Richards had their own name and their own business.
I think the name gets a bit of 'bad press' from what can be read on the internet sometimes. They made/sold a lot of very nice guns too, I'm no expert, but wouldn't be suprised if you could find a W. and a Westley based on the same action out there, both of mine had Westley type box ejectors, they weren't marked as such but imagine the extra confusion that it could cause nowadays if you were doing some research on the gun and they were and had been. (Hope that makes sense)
The link to the W. Richards history page on an earlier post is well worth a look, a friend of mine remembers the Old Hall St. Shop in Liverpool from when he was a kid and when I'm out shooting I'm on high ground looking out over into England, across two rivermouths and on to Liverpool, 14 miles away as the crow flys, further inland on the nearest river is Chester, just visible. The home of my other favourite old gunmaker, Henry Monk but that's another story. Must be a local interest thing with me I suppose.
Ha. Sorry if I've ranbled on.
Nick.