Hello,
Brand new to this forum and I am politely asking for some help with a side by side rifle I have. I hope I am posting in the correct forum.

MY DISCLAIMER: I am posting here to help my father gather information about the gun my grandfather left to him. I will admit up front, that I have no real knowledge of guns or collecting, so please be very patient with me.

BACKGROUND: This is what I have been told over the years regarding the gun itself. It came from a home in Berlin, Germany. It was sent home to my Great Grandmother in the U.S. by her son (my Grandfather) when he was 'clearing houses' in WW2. To my knowledge, it has not been fired since the 1940's.

GUN INFORMATION: The name on the gun is Otto Bock, Hoplieferant, Berlin. The word Nitro appears on both sides. There is a (serial?) number of 19207. This number appears in two different places on the gun (see pics). There are also many symbols, but my father and I do not know how to decipher these.

WHAT I'M AFTER: An overall understanding of the gun. Who made it? What year is it from? How does the condition look? What do each of the individual symbols/serial numbers mean?

I can answer any questions, but like I said, I don't know anything about guns, so you will have to speak to me like you are asking an 8-year old the questions. ha ha. I can also post more pictures if that helps you help me identify the gun.

Here it is...











[img]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn283/keep_it_warm/IMG_0482.jpg[/img]

The symbols are proof marks from when the gun was proof fired with an overload at the proof house prior to being sold. There should be others than the ones you posted. A vies of all of them would help us a lot in identifying it possibly dating it. Since you didn't mention it, is it safe to assume you didn't get the scope which was once fitted to its claw mount bases, or even the mounts.

Where else do I look for numbers/proof marks? Do I need to disassemble the gun to find them?

You are correct, no scope at all. Just the gun as you see it.

The numbers seen in the 3rd pic down (where the gun is cracked open) are 19207.

All the other numbers/proof marks shown further down in the pics were found under the barrel stock (geez, I hope that's what it's called. Where else on the gun would numbers/proof marks be?

Here is a better pic of the marks shown above...you can see them in one pic here:

Krupp Stahl- Krupp Steel-- first German made sporting gun I have yet seen with just that wording- usual steel grade might be- Krupp Special Gewehr LaufStahl- Krupp Special Gun barrel steel- of all the nickel bearing ordnance barrel steels of that era- Krupp was the best for machineability- damn good steel!~!

Otto Bock guns were often made for export, some of the stampings you have found for us indicate that this piece was made for export- possibly to Stoeger in NYC- a firm founded by Good Germans that later became America's Gun house- back in the days when you could order a M21 skeet gun for a few C'notes and have it shipped RR Express right to you- No BATF 4473 forms, etc-

Are there any markings on the scope bases- inside the dovetails? On the forearm inside- usually on the forearm iron. I may have a horn buttplate to replace the broken one on your gun, but would need dims from the existing one to be sure- Fine gun, as are/were all the German and Austrian Sporting guns!

Yeah, let's see the flats. From the images it appears that it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis post 1911 and with the Louis Kelber effort on the imported Krupp steel tubes, I would guess that it was made by one of the Schillings from the Zella-Mehlis area. Is the Nitro stamp in script? There should be a date stamp as well as a ledger number on the flats. Also there will be a diameter stamp in mm. Otto Bock was the firearms merchant/retailer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is where I begin to ask for your patience....

RUN WITH THE FOX: You want me to check the scope bases, inside the dovetails. Is that simply an eyeball check? Or is there disassembly required? (I'm at work on Tuesday morning now, gun is at home). The markings shown (Krupp-Stahl, etc) are from underneath the forearm of the gun.

ELLENBR: What are the flats? Is that the flat part of the gun when cracked open (like in the 3rd pic of my initial post?)

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, I just need to understand so I can take the correct pictures you might need to help me.

On your last image, the flats are the area from the left side of the image back to the end of the tubeset. There will be touchmarks there. It is the area where the flat portion of the tubeset interfaces with the receiver/water table. Can you say the the Nitro stamp is in script? The "Crown" over "G" touchmark means that the tube experienced proof with a solid projectile.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ok trying to keep it simple:
You need to remove the wood piece below the barrels and ahead of the triggers. There's a latch for this usually on the underside of the wood piece that you minipulate to do this. You can then pull the wood piece called the forend down and off the gun. After doing this use the lever to open the gun and you should be able to swing the barrels down and off the frame. The gun is now in 3 major pieces. There should be markings on the flat part above and forward of the triggers. We need to know what's marked there.
Jim

Nice rifle, looking forward to more photos.

ITALIANSXS: Thanks! Those are directions I can understand! I will most definitely do this as soon as I get home this afternoon. I'll take pics of every marking I see and post here later.

ELLENBR: The word Nitro appears on the side of each barrel. Here is one of the pictures posted above...but I enlarged it and messed with the brightness until I could see the Nitro word. Does this help? I can get a clear pic later.

Nitro Crown over N

That is sufficient and confirms that um it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility. With a serial number like 19207, it would have been sourced from a larger Zella-Mehlis concern who in turn subed the tube work to Louis Kelber, one of the top tube makers on par with one of Belgium's best, Jean Falla. The tube makers were a very proud group and rightfully so as their work was the basis for the sporting arm. If the tubes burst on the 1st test, the tube maker had to replace at his expense. If the tubeset burst on the 2nd test then the tube makers & tubeset knitter accepted the blame. Then if the longarm submitted in the final state fails the proof test, then the whole lot of mechanics had to accept the failure and that along with compensation is the reason for the maker's touchmarks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The preliminary answer to the author's question about value:

Gun is worth at least $1500 as-is, perhaps more, up to about $4500. Repaired and thoughtfully conserved it could be worth up to $7500. (after spending $1500-$2000 on repairs)

The unknowns that the readers are trying to determine that eliminate the big variance in values:

1. Patent type
2. Type of cartridge
3. Overall condition
4. Bore condition
5. Real maker (not the retailer on the rib)

Raimey and the rest of the crew will steer you right. Let's see if their appraisals match mine in the end. (they are waiting to give you a narrower estimate, I'm sure)

Ok, everyone thanks! I will get to it as soon as I get home this afternoon. Expect more pics later today...

I agree with the above assessment particularly if the caliber turns out to be one still loaded today.
I do have a question of my own? I'm wondering if the missing guard was one of the horn examples? These have always seen prone to breakage to me.
Jim

My first assumption, on seeing the trigger guard missing, was that the guard was of horn. It would match the buttplate, which also appears to be of horn.

Just to be a little clearer: there are two sets of "flats", which are the flat surfaces where the receiver (the part with the shoulder stock attached) and the barrels (not their business end) come together when the gun is closed. The "flats" on the receiver are called the "watertable" and the flats on the barrel are the "barrel flats".

Most of the proof marks we're interested in, and which will do a lot to flesh out the provenance, identity (and worth) of your gun will be located on or around the barrel flats. As noted above, the identities of the actual workmen who made the tubes (barrels), joined them (knitters), inspectors and the shops they worked for can be known because they all had unique identifying marks. (Some of the guys here have done some real scholarship on this.) Similarly, with German guns it is often possible to know the exact month in which the gun was "born" (sometimes, they take a while to get "made") because that is stamped on the barrel flats; it's possible this gun was made before that became the law in Germany, but we'll see when you get more pictures up. (From the looks of the design, it looks to me like an interwar gun.) And, of course, the caliber of the rounds used in this gun will be revealed by the marks.

As a double rifle, this gun is likely to be worth more than a similar double-barrelled shotgun made by the same shops/people at the same time and with the same level of engraving, wood and finishing. This is for two basic reasons: there were many fewer double rifles made than double shotguns and double rifles were far more expensive to begin with. Double rifles were (probably most) commonly used for dangerous game (big cats, rhinos, buffalo, elephants, etc.) because they provided the hunter with a second shot instantly ready without having to work the action in case the first one didn't do the job. Because the average guy didn't have the means or time to go the far distance and expense of safari, the average guy didn't have need for a double rifle.

All that said: I really like the engraving on the receiver. Looks good. Your grandfather had good taste in guns.

I took the gun apart just as mentioned. So here are the additional pictures....

You've got a gem in 9.3X74R in possibly a chopper lump tubeset. Can we get an image of the end with the extractor out?

Kind Regards

Raimey
rse

I don't know what you mean when you say the end with the extractor out? Can you post a similar picture to what you are looking to see?

Googled it...LOL...I see the extractor, but how does it come out?

EDIT: I've never felt like such an idiot in my life! Thanks again for the patience.

I had my fingers crossed for the owner Raimy that 9.3X74R would be the caliber. I agree this is a gem and well worth restoring.
If you go back up to the picture with the 9.1 It appears to be a chopper lump.

Dave in Maine:
I was trying to be as simple and straight forward as possible so he could disassemble the gun and figured if I so much as mentioned "water table" and "standing breach" etc. the owner would have decided we were all nuts and went somewhere else.
Jim

YES! I greatly apprecite the over-simplified wording.

Ok, I got it...here is the extractor:

Again I see evidence that it's a chopper lump.

Keep it warm:
As an aside please let us know where you are located. It troubles me it see a gun like this that's been not maintained for God knows how long. Perhaps we can put you in touch with a member or gunsmith that can at least clean and oil it for now till you decide what you want to do restoration wise.
Jim

I'm just outside Detroit, Michigan.

Is the gun in questionable shape? Or does it just need a good cleaning/oiling?

Also, and most importantly to me, could someone perhaps recap all the things that are now known about the rifle? I'm very anxious to give my dad an update. It may seem like a hassle, but I would love to know what each of the marks means. Am I asking too much?

So here are the proof marks. Can anyone elaborate on the meaning of each?

Barrels under forearm:


Watertable (below):


Barrel Flats (below):

Ks in a jagged circle - multiple tube task effort by Louis Kelber, one of the best rifled tube makers.

Imperial Eagle with "Crown" over "G" preliminary proof more than likely of the single tube only with a solid projectile with say 3 times the black powder powder charge and 1 1/2 times the bullet weight. Here I think the Austrians used two lead spheres.

Stylized brace of SS are the initials of the tube knitter and it may have been one of the Schilling boys, or some other S last name, possibly with a 1st name like Sylvestr.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Crown" over "N" denotes Nitro proof with paired Imperial Eagle and "Crown" over "U" denoting 2nd proof or final? and inspection. I assume that is on the water table?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Exciting! The wife and I are reading your replies. Going to call my dad in a few and tell him FINALLY, after owning the rifle for roughly 70 years, where it originated!

[/quote]

St. M G / 18,7 grams denotes an 18.7 gram steel metal jacket bullet.

Imperial Eagle coupled with "Crown" over "G" is the triple preliminary proof post the 1911 rules change more than likely with the tubes fashioned in the tubeset. Really a repeat of the mark higher on the tubes.

Eagle "Crown" over "U" 2nd proof and an inspection mark.

9.1mm over 74mm is the pre-rifled, submitted for proof diameter with an anticipated 74mm chamber, i.e., 9.3X74R cartridge.

Intertwined Z-M denotes the mark of the Zella Mehlis proofhouse.

I'm sure I can add more if you desire.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

8.12 - proof date of August of 1912

877 - #877 in the proof queue for August #1912 - ledger number

Curious as to how you came to inquire/post here?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Is there an official maker of the rifle? Does it have a name?

What would you refer to it as?

EDIT: My dad brought the rifle over and I took the initial pictures of it. I went online and typed in "Otto Bock rifle". Either one of the pictures or one of the resulting links was to this website. So I clicked and started looking around here.

I soon realized that I didn't understand much of the "language" and terminology, so I thought I would take a chance, sign up, and hope for some helpful people.

I couldn't be more happy!

Boxlock double rifle, or Doppelbuchse and possibly a Blitz or triggerplate action? Any image of the floorplate or underside of the action where the horn triggerbow guard is missing?

On the PM I provided the following for terms/definitions & info on the Z-M proofhouse:

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

http://www.beschussanstalt.zella-mehlis.de/en/

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Can I ask a general gun collecting question?

Is it better to leave things as-is? A simple clean-up? Or do some sort of restoration? To me, the gun is 'as my grandfather owned it' and I think that's really special. I like it this way. My dad does too. Just curious about the tendencies of collectors of this sort of rifle...

any comments?

If it were mine---I'm not a collector---I would keep it as it is. You are fortunate in owning a gun that's been in the family all these years.

If a gunsmith said it was in good condition, I'd buy some light loads, take the shotgun on a family outing, fire a shot to celebrate a great provenance.

Just think of it: "This is my grandfather's gun." "Ever shoot it? "Of course. It's been in the family for X years." You're a lucky guy!

It should be thoughtfully conserved. Rust destroyed, bores cleaned, checkering degunked, perhaps a light freshening of the stock, a new trigger bow crafted.

Well, if it ends up being a 9.3x74mm you'll have a mid priced gun, a practical and available round, but not worth half as much as if it were a big bore.

If the barrels aren't pitted your gun just went up fromm initial estimate by at least $1500 more.

You'll need a competent smith to do a chamber casting to confirm what cartridge it shoots.

I'm going to disagree with my friend King Brown here on this point. I believe a cleaning as outlined above will be a positive conservative step forward for this gun.
Jim

Someone upthread had mentioned "watertable" and I figured it would be a good idea to define that while I was at it.

To the owner: we've been mentioning "chopper lump tubeset". To clarify, there are several ways of making the barrels for double-barrelled guns, one of which is called "chopper lump". To keep it short and sweet, this process involves making the two individual barrels each from a single piece of steel. Each of these pieces of steel will have extra metal at the butt end of the piece, from which the manufacturer will later form the "lumps". The "lumps" are those blocky hooks of metal projecting from the middle-bottom of the barrel flats which lock into the bottom of the receiver. The individual barrel blanks are machined to shape (and bored) and the lumps on each are machined to shape - half of the lumps on each barrel. The two barrels are then joined together (usually by brazing) at the lumps and other work is done to join the barrels into a single unit. The name "chopper" comes from British English. The raw barrel blanks with the lumps look something like an axe, which is called a "chopper" in British. Thus the name.

Making double-barrelled guns of any caliber by the chopper lump method is time-consuming, requires a lot of fine craftsmanship and detail work and is therefore reserved for expensive, higher-end guns. Is it "better" than any other method? You'd have to define "better". It is surely more expensive and involves more fine craftsmanship.

And, FWIW, the "standing breech" is the flat face on the receiver with the holes for the firing pins and against which the back end of the barrels rests. It's perpendicular to the watertable.

The 9.3x74 cartridge is one which is still in production. It is quite powerful and used in big game rifles. IIRC, it is legal for elephant and cape buffalo in some countries. I would not, however, go out and buy a box to shoot through this gun. At least not just yet. (Setting aside that it'll cost $4 to $5 each time you pull the trigger and your local gun store is unlikely to carry it.) This gun needs to be carefully inspected by a gunsmith who knows about double rifles, detail cleaned, and the bores checked carefully. This gun will turn 100 later this year and deserves to be treated with care. It also needs a trigger guard.

Since it hasn't been fired in many years (no surprise - the ammunition is obscure) I would not be surprised if the hammer springs are shot and will have to be replaced. Being left cocked for 70 years will do that to even the best steel springs.

In the meantime, keep it in a warm, dry place. I'm sure someone here will be able to suggest a good gunsmith to do what's needed to be done.

Congratulations! You hit the lottery....

You know, an image of the standing breech just might reveal a monogram and point to a specific craftsmen. Which concern sourced all the work, difficult to say. Otto Bock would have placed an order with the larger concern in the area and then that concern either used in-house craftsmen or subed the work to the cottage like industry. But what can be said is that the effort on the sporting arm was drawn from the very talented pool of mechanics in the Zella Sankt Blassi or Mehlis area.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dave in Maine:
Sorry if my "simplistic" explanation of this owners double gun offended your senses but my intent was to allow him to get his gun disassembled and posted in a way that wouldn't be intimidating to him.
I could have writen a similiar discourse to yours at that time but to what point?
Jim

Let me pause here and say this:
I am a member of many collector forums in other areas of collecting (bicycles, baseball cards, etc). As a brand new member, I have NEVER been treated with this amount of straight-forward knowledge and respect. I want everyone who has posted in this thread to know that it is very refreshing to be received so politely.

I was nervous about joining and posting because I have no knowledge of guns (neither does my dad). All of you have turned this into a very exciting and rewarding experience for me...and I thank you for that.

BACK TO THE TOPIC:
According to my dad, he has never seen the gun in anything but the simple 'gun bag' shown in the pictures of my initial post. Is the bag itself related to the gun? I'm guessing not. It's old and worn, but probably just some bag?

STANDING BREACH: I will post a picture of it tonight (I'm at work again now). However, I did not notice any markings on it yesterday.

SIMPLIFIED LANGUAGE: More thanks go out to all of you who have taken the time to 'dumb down' the explanations for me. It helps me learn and get you people the pictures you want to see.

I have learned more about guns in the past 2.5 days than I have in the previous 44 years of my life.

It is our sincere hope that this gun will be the start of a new interest-passion in your life. Be it just collecting or collecting and shooting fine guns. This is one of the best forums I belong to.

I will post pictures of the floorplate ans well as the standing breach tonight...

Also...can anyone recommend a reputable gunsmith in southeast Michigan?

More pictures...I hope these add something to the discussion:

I found a "V" mark on the underside:


A view of the broken trigger guard (you can see the "V" to the left:


Trigger area:

Well:
Your picture of the underside confirms that the gun had a horn triggerguard. Perhaps someone will know where a replacement can be obtained.
The picture down the barrel is disturbing and it's obvious the gun hasn't been maintained for quite some time.
Hopefully someone will come up with a qualified gunsmith in your area.
Jim

Ok, this one is driving me nuts. What exactly is a "horn trigger guard"? What does it look like? Why is it called a horn trigger guard? Would it be replaced with something original to the era? Or is it something that would have to be made?

Regarding the gunsmith...yes, please! Someone, anyone. I am open to suggestions.

It's a trigger guard made of molded horn.

It is replaced with another trigger guard made of molded horn. They are available.

A gun like this is something that New England Custom Gun in Claremont NH is capable of working on to your highest satisfaction.

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com

Well:This kills two birds with one shot!
Here is a picture of a horn trigger guard and also a place to buy one. However: It will have to be fitted to your gun.
http://www.csmcspecials.com/Buffalo_Horn_Trigger_Guard_p/ph200.htm
Jim

Byford "Mac" MacDaniel- Plymouth MI area. Mac first started his shop in the Grosse Pointe area (East side of Detroit)and had taken early retirement from GM- he was a tool & die maker- I used to frequent his shop, he once showed me a pair of Purdey's he was cleaning for the now late "Hank The Deuce" Ford--his brother William Clay Ford owns the Lions football team- and they are/were both pretty sure of their silver spoons in life. Old Hank the deuce used to say "Hey, when your last name's on the %^&**() building, you can do damn well as you please. My first wife was from that area, and graduated from HS the year Hank the deuce threw a Deb Party for his daughter- mid-1960's $250,000 and change- hope the fish and goose soire was worth it!!!

Please get some light machine oil like 3-in-1 sewing machine oil, or visit a gunshop and get some gun oil. Put a very thin coating on the metal to prevent any further corrosion. Get an inexpensive rifle cleaning rod and cut a patch of old cotton T-shirt that will fit in the rifle bores without getting stuck. Saturate the patch with oil and run the patch back and forth a few times in the bores to coat them with oil to help prevent any further corrosion. Don't get any oil on the wood.

Sorry guys, I'm not sure what more there is to add or offer me, but I was still wondering: Did anyone ever figure out who the real maker of the gun is? Member 'Rookhawk' said it is not the name on the rib (Otto Bock).

So is there a specific 'maker' that sold the rifle?

Otto Bock was the retailer. Raimey (ellenbr) may know the craftsmen that built the gun.

Seeing it was proofed at the Zella-Mehlis facility & was sourced from that area, the V just might be for one of the Voigt Boys. It is highly possible that Otto Bock could have placed an order with C. Voigt Waffenversand Mehlis and he in turned sourced his relatives.


1907 Advert

I'm going to find the Otto Bock eagle egg collecting story and attempt to sum it up on this recent Otto Bock thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276756&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

'Set Triggers' perhaps from the looks of the small adj screws in them..?
Not unusual on a German or Austrian double rifle but an extra none the less.

Nice rifle. A strip down, clean and check for any needed repairs to metal or wood as necessary to preserve it and make shootable would be the least I'd do.
Preserve from further damage from any rust action.
A new trigger guard of horn to replace the missing original.
Take it out and shoot it.