Related to the vintage gun thread earlier, I'm curious which style of engraving most people prefer, stylized vintage or modern realistic. Myself, I much prefer vintage engraving of fat little ducks with stubby wings, flying about as if by magic, rather than the ultra realistic work done today. Even more curious, I wonder if engravers of that period purposefully tried to make their work stylized, or if they thought it was realistic but just weren't very good at representation?
Mark:
I'll cast my vote for the stuff done in the UK in the late 19th Century/early 20th. If you're talking wildlife only, the British stuff was a bit stylized, but overall decent. American animals were mostly so poorly done as to be laughable. But some of America's immigrant engravers did well -- although their style was mostly Teutonic.
The current trend toward Bulino photo-realistic engraving is impressive at first, then one soon begins to realise that as precise as it may be, it simply amounts to a photo on your gun. I prefer art. And that includes interpretation by the artist -- something you know much about.
As for scroll and such, I'll still take the classic stuff from 1860 through 1920. Those engravers knew classic style, balance, proportion... and taste.
Still, one must always keep in mind that much engraving in the British trade was done by young men who simply learned from the master at the next bench.
Best, Kensal
PS: The Parker stock you did kicks bloody butt!!
For game scene engraving I'd have to say the modern Italian bulino engraving is spectacular. Incredible reality. But for scroll, vine, floral engraving I much prefer the vintage work from 50-100 years ago.
But for scroll, vine, floral engraving I much prefer the vintage work from 50-100 years ago.
Same here and I really like the British/Scottish Celtic styled engraving from that same period. The Bulino pretty much leaves me cold and reminds me of one of those T-shirts printed with your kid's photo on it.
I guess I'm an odd ball. I prefer no engraving on my own guns. I'm satisfied with some nice case colors and a damascus pattern. I can appreciate the fine art work of engraving though---as long as it's on someone else's weapon.
I couldn't agree more with gwsmitth, that Italian Bulino engraving is spectacular. The birds aren't flying turnips anymore!!
But I do preferr the English tight rose and scroll engraving regardless of the period.
I prefer the older more stylized engraving but I don't care for the work of an apprentice engraver - there is no art in such engraving and they were obviously just trying to copy a pattern before them. I like dogs and birds to look alive and realistic. There were some wonderful masters then and I could study examples of their work for hours.
That being said, I think Geoffroy Gournet's woodcock are magical and everything stops when I have the chance to view his work.
Vintage engraving seen on high-grade ($150 grades and upwards) American doubleguns from about 1890 onwards. Although some makers certainly featured more attractive engraving patterns, I don't care who the maker was, it was all excellent work. And though some view many of the engraved animals from this period as caricatures; I could care less, they appear entirely appropriate to the period. Additionally, the stock checkering and carving seen on the high grade American double guns from this period was fabulous, and certainly appropriate with the engraving work these stocks complimented.
It all depends on the gun. Vintage guns should have engraving appropriate to the piece but a contemporary 21st century engraver would have few customers if he or she were to engrave the styalized animals of the 19th century on contemporary sporting arms.
The skill and artistry of today's top engravers is unparalleled by engravers of the "golden age." However the work of Joe Loy, L. D. Nimschke, and their better contemporaries looks perfect on the guns of their era.
If one is primarily a collector of vintage guns then the eye is basically attuned to the style of engraving found on them, however for the person who is an actual patron of the engraver's art (not just restoration engraving) then a different standard is usually expected.
On the other hand if one views all firearms as a "weapon" then no engraving would naturally be the choice.
Fortunately for those who want a gun engraved, there is a very strong field of excellent engravers both in the US and abroad to meet any taste or style of engraving.
CRB
Vintage of cause. It was much cheaper, than today.
I prefer vintage or vintage-like engraving. I don't like gold on guns. I really like traditional rose and scroll, like that on a Boss or Purdey. These guns just seem to have a subtle elegance about them. I do very much like the Bulino engraving but I wonder how well it will endure the 'wear and tear' as years go by?? It is so delicate that the least little bit of rust would probably shipwreck the appearance of bulino. Also, this sort of engraving seems to step up the price of the guns significantly.
it wont be long before modern will be vintage to generations to come. i like both and love it when someone says are you nuts
hunting with that. well i generally reply thats what gives it character.
"American animals were mostly so poorly done as to be laughable."
I guess you never saw the work of Albert Kraus, noted as being one of the top four engravers in the world at the time.
I'll know it when I see it.
I have always liked art deco floral stuff seen on some Ithacas and LC Smiths. Maybe it is more like art nouveau. I'm no artist. I'm searching for an LC in that style.
I would just like to add, previous-poster and engraver/author C. Roger Bleile has just finished a new book, "American Engravers of The 21st Century". It is very well-done, obviously a labor of love. Editor-Publisher Steven Fjested has not only done a nice job with the text, but his Blue Book publications has taken great time and expense to get the best color separtion, paper stock and print quality; in large format it's a stunning example of what print can do and priced very resonably at $75.
I honestly get a thrill every time I open it and urge anyone with an interest in fine guns and engraving to buy it. It's very much more than just a fabulous picture book.
All the best,
C.
Make mine old time scroll engraving. Most dogs and birds done before WWII were very amateurish compared to today's almost too perfect versions. Yes there are a few exceptions, but too few. Scroll, of that period, is equal to or better than even the best today. How many flying turnips, birds and dogs with Barbie like proportions have you seen? Most if not almost all of the pre WWI fall into this category. Today bulino is to much like a photo for my taste. Art deco was a very short lived period of art and you either like it or hate it.
It mostly comes down to a difference in how engraving is view by the buyer. If you had a gun made in 1900 you had the staff engraver engrave the standard pattern. He was a skilled workman who was paid to do his standard work. If not doing guns he might be working in the jewelry trade or on silverware. You employed him at his job. Good workman like job to make you gun just as nice as your fellow shooters who had bought the same grade of gun. Most engraving jobs took a day or two at most. Look at the ledger book of Purdey where they list amount paid for engraving and you will see batches of gun done in what averages out to about a day or two for full coverage engraving. 10-20 hours total work at most for full scroll coverage. Engraving was an accessory like white wall tires or a radio on a new car. Maybe 10% of the gun value as an cost.
Today you "commission"" an engraver. The level of detail is only limited by your wallet and how fine the engraver can work under his microscope. You are not just getting a gun like you fellow shooter you are making a statement. You are creating "art" or at least the illusion of art. "Art" takes months to create and the number of hours can reach into the hundreds of hours. Now engraving can be the most expensive part of a gun maybe more than two thirds or more of the guns cost.
And gold on guns, like on teeth should be where you can not see it. Gold plated internal parts are fine to protect from rust. Gold teeth should be in the rear of the mouth or under porcelain. Not stuck up front or on the outside to make you look like Ochio Stinko of the Cincinnati Bengals or the local failed drug dealer with extra grill work. And no gun should get any multi colored enamel colors.
As I suspected, engraving tastes seem to be all over the board, and as subjective as any other kind of art. I do however find it somewhat surprising that not many here seem to view bulino very favorably. I would have thought otherwise.
Clare,
Thanks for the kind words about my most recent book. A labor of love indeed!
Roger
As to gold, I generally agree with my professional colleague KY Jon. On the other hand, if it is subtle and not over done, I don't mind a little here and there......
Both of these are, of course, examples of the modern engraver's art.
My preference for old or new may extend to overdone case colors too. If I won't be hunting the redone colors on my project guns to a more subdued tone, I may opt for a different style of finish. This is not a statement about Bob Blair's beautiful pictures, but they did get me to thinking about a couple of my projects in progress.
I'm a big fan of well-executed. Plenty of that old and new.
Like Chuck said, "I know it when I see it."
As far as old goes, I really enjoy Woodwards along with the
fancy Greeners, Lindners and Harkoms.
Also enjoy the hi-end Smiths, Bakers and LeFevers.
-jim
I think the vintage works of Loy and Kornbrath were of my liking very much so.
The bulino style is also one I like when done tastefully. I especially like it when combined with other techniques where deeper scroll and banknote is used.
The question I have for today's engravers is this: could you knock out a Purdey type engraving of the same quality in a couple days. Or, does the modern buyer demand much more perfection or whatever it's called?
Joe,
I watched Barry Hands knock out some pretty nice stuff pretty quickly with his Italian made pnuematic engraver.
I like the old time stuff
Dog with tail and head down
Close up of one of the dogs
and stubby winged birds
Mike
"The question I have for today's engravers is this: could you knock out a Purdey type engraving of the same quality in a couple days. Or, does the modern buyer demand much more perfection or whatever it's called?"
Joe,
The present day connoisseur of high end double guns does expect a higher level of perfection and the best engravers can provide that.
When we speak of covering a sidelock double gun with rose and scroll in a couple of days you have to keep in mind that shops like Jack Sumner's and Harry Kell's had a number of journeymen and apprentices working for them. When a gunmaker sent in work on Monday with a note saying they needed it by Thursday, several people in the shop worked on the gun at the same time. The opening lever and trigger guard to one engraver, the forend iron and latch to another, the screws to an apprentice and so on.
One British engraver told me, about 30 years ago, that inexpensive Birmingham guns were sometimes engraved using what was known as "punch work" where one engraver cut all of the scroll spirals with a hammer and chisel and another cut the "inside work" with a burin.
Also keep in mind that engravers working for the trade in the UK and Europe receive the gun parts in the white, polished, and in the "soft" pre-hardened state. After engraving the parts are sent back to the maker for hardening and assembly. American engravers working for private customers usually receive a complete, assembled , hardened gun that they must disassemble, strip the finish, polish, engrave in the hardened state, then get refinished and reassembled. This all adds time and difficulty. It is also why American engravers favor air assisted gravers due to having to work on hardened gun steel, especially magnum revolvers.
Cheers,
Roger
"I watched Barry Hands knock out some pretty nice stuff pretty quickly with his
Italian made pnuematic engraver."
Chuck H,
Barry uses a Lindsay PalmControl air graver made in Kearney, Nebraska by Steve Lindsay Engraving and Tools. The Lindsay PC is also my preferred choice of tools though, like most long time gun engravers, I use the burin, hammer and chisel, punches or anything that helps achieve the desired effect efficiently. An example and explanation of the Lindsay PalmControl AirGraver can be found at this link:
http://www.engravingglossary.com/Hand%20Engraving%20Glossary%20L.htmBTW: I know of no power assisted engraving tools made in Italy.
If anyone would like to learn more about the tools, terminology, and styles of engraving you can click on the link under my signature to visit my illustrated glossary. The glossary has over 300 definitions and over 400 images covering every aspect of hand engraving including terms in French, Italian, and German.
Cheers,
Roger
Speaking of the old and new in the SAME model of Spanish guns; I have a higher grade Uggie made in 1969. The engraving is much better executed than in the same model today which also has a bit less engraving if one looks close.
I've noticed the same in other Spanish makers cutting back a wee bit in engraving on new vs. the old same model.
Another example is the Grulla 215. Look at the quality of engraving on the ones that Dakin imported in the 50s compared to the 215s of today.
Roger, thanks a lot for your contribution. It does make sense that the work was spread out amongst several workmen. Slowly but surely this topic is wringing out some pretty good information.
Keep it up!
Roger,
I'm sure you're correct. His reference may have been to the compressor. Wine was making things a little fuzzy while we talked, during his stay in SoCal a number of years ago.
After my recent negative experience with a very well known engraver I think I'm going to say I prefer vintage rather than modern.
Destry
Destry,
I'm dissapointed to hear that you had a negative experience with an engraver. I can understand why you don't want to name names. Unfortunately, your post casts a pall of suspicion on every "well known" engraver since we don't know the name or circumstances.
You may consider filing a grevance with the FEGA board if the engraver is a member.
Regards,
RB
Roger, you imply that guns sent to engravers are engraved "hard". However, I am led to believe that some engravers anneal shotgun receivers or have them annealed, engrave them, and then send them to be hardened. What is the real story? I am in the middle of a project right now and would like some information. Bill Murphy
high quality engraving. doesn't matter if old or new. But, nothing worse than poor quality engraving no matter the vintage.
Roger,
I find your Glossary superb.
With kind regards,
Jani
The top 3 grades of Parker,Lefever and L.C. Smith are my favorites. Like the D.M. Lefevers too.Lots of variety and nuance among the guns by different engravers even with guns of the same grade.
i anneal then polish then engrave.except Rugers i don't anneal them just engrave with a carbide tool.i think Kornbrath was the most talented of the engravers of the first half of the 20th century.most were good but piece work,, engraving to a price, caused a lot of sub par engraving.as always just my opinion. mc
Roger,
I wrote a letter to the engraver pushing two months ago voicing my concerns over the outcome of the project and have heard not a word from him. He's somebody everybody on here knows, that's why I'm so surprised.
Took months to complete a pretty small job that he claimed he'd have back to me in a couple weeks. Didn't do anything close to what I asked for plus added another figure that I didn't ask for. Charged a big price for a small job. I hate it so much I'm actually going to have it removed from the gun. And then the no response to my concerns just capped it off.
I'm sure he has his side to the story and I'd like to hear it. But when you write a guy a formal letter of concern and then never hear a word from him you've got to wonder.....
Destry
Show us some pictures Destry.
Roger, you imply that guns sent to engravers are engraved "hard". However, I am led to believe that some engravers anneal shotgun receivers or have them annealed, engrave them, and then send them to be hardened. What is the real story? I am in the middle of a project right now and would like some information. Bill Murphy
Bill,
Some engravers do anneal and reharden shotgun receivers when a complete custom job is in the works especially if the parts are CCH.
Some will not anneal because they fear the liability of a change to the hardness. Most American engravers are engeged in work on revolvers and some 1911 type pistols. I don't know anyone who anneals handgun parts, especially the cylinder, slide, or barrel. The one thing that does routinly get annealed is the frame of Colt SAAs if they are color case hardened or for that matter any part that is bone charcoal hardened (not cyanide hardened). You just can't do a decent job trying to cut through CCH because the surface is too hard. If it is an old gun with all of the CCH worn off the engraver may opt to cut it as is because the CCH is only a very thin surface hardness,
The one part that I always anneal is the loading gate on stainless steel Ruger single action revolvers. They are almost diamond hard as they come from the factory and there is no good reason for it.
My comments have just touched the surface of this issue because I don't have the time to go into more detail. The thing to do is to have a clear understanding between you and your chosen engraver if he or she believes that parts need to be annealed and if so who will do it and if they need rehardening. Also what will be the costs involved.
My initial comment in this thread was meant to draw a distinction between American and UK/European engravers. The American must consider and deal with this issue whearas our foreign counterparts get most of their work in the soft state directly from the factory or gunmaker during the initial manufacturing process.
My apologies if this digression has hijacked the original point of this thread.
Cheers,
Roger
Whether you see it as old fashioned and stylized or not, I am very partial to the right lockplate on this 1886 AA Lefever:
Nothing like English Vintage
Just like a kid, I have to show everyone what I have learned. I could not figure out how to post pictures on this forum, instead of links, until I read Joe Wood's posting under FAQs.
Thank you Joe,
21
IMHO the pre-war German engraving was excellent, and perhaps in part because of a lower labor cost allowing more work to be done. And I like it deep! Steve
