Hi Folks,
I posted this same question on another site, this site had a delayed approval for membership and I was impatient....
Some of my internet searches have led me to this site on previous guns. I have a few sxs and U/O shotguns and one mossberg bolt action maverick.
The SXS's incluse an Armitalia de Luccini, a Crawford and a Diamond (all hammer guns) and a Stevens (hammerless) U/O's include my primary trap gun a Browning GP Trap, a Beretta sliver pigeon bought for my partner to use for Trap shooting and a Boito that was my "see if I like the sport" trap gun.
I am in the process of purchasing a new WW Greener SXS and I have the right of refusal if it doesn't meet my expectations.
I am hoping that someone here can shed some light on the authenticity of the gun (I know there were knock off Belgium greeners) and any other details.
I am unclear on the "right" markings but the seller has sent me the following pictures.
I am reasonably convinced it is a Greener and not a copy, but I was hoping to find out more about the grade, approximate era etc.. I am also unclear if its fit for modern shells or not. I can make out the elephants, and the England stamp, but thats where I run out of ideas.
The gun illustrated is a low grade Greener 12 Bore likely Grade D10.[A 10 guinea gun as compared to 150 guineas for their best gun] The proof marks are Birmingham black Powder in use upto 1904. The barrels are damascus and are bored 13 bore which means to be in proof they must not measure greater than .719 inches in diameter checked 9 inches from the breech. The chamber length is likely 2.5 inches but the proof mark is valid upto 3.0 inches.Both barrels have some degree of choke.The Elephant trade mark is found on genuine Greener guns.
The name Edwards is likely an owners/sellers name and has no relevance to proof.
If you care to provide the serial # the date of manufacture and exact grade can likely be determined.
Yup, it's a Greener. It will be up to you to measure the barrels and determine the condition. The gun has many miles on it and must be carefully evaluated before purchase.
Looks to me like what I've heard called a Greener Forester model; a low grade "keeper's gun". The marks on the barrel flats are all English though, so I don't think its any sort of 'knock-off'...Geo
P.S. Welcome to the forum!
All of the above advice is right on. As an aside, the elephant trade mark came about in the late 1800's when William Wellington Greener was called upon to dispatch a circus elephant that had escaped and was running amuck through the streets of London.
Best Regards, George
I agree with the lads above.
Strange engraving though,eh? Kinda looks like Chequering or stippling,I am sure I have seen it on another Greener somewhere,perhaps in the Greener Book, I will look through mine & see if its there.
Make sure you get the Gun looked over, especially the tubes.
I don't think WW made any junk, even in the plain Grades,prolly a good solid Gun, if still in good order.Wood is pretty good for a low end
Good luck with it
Franc
It appears to be a Greener D10 Anson & Deeley actioned non ejecter with " Machine Engraving " on the action slides. A strong, robust gun with good potential IF in good shape.
It's lower grade...looks to be in fair shape. Don't get over your head in it.
An off-topic question: is the un-checkered wood common?
If the gun is pre-1887, and I think it is, the 13 stamping would cover the bore size at 9" from the breech,being in proof,up to
.729 Your biggest concerns are bore condition and barrel wall thickness and whether barrel length and choke have been altered.
Fin, the wood looks refinished and if the original checkering was almost worn smooth, which happens, the re-finish probably took care of the rest.... It looks like some of the upper border is still left.
The metal on the action looks pretty proud....
OK! Pretty impressed with the information you guys have mustered on this one!
I might have to test your skills on some of he others I have. I don't have the level of expertise you guys do. Thanks for such a great welcome.
I have confirmed it is an Anson and Deeley, non ejector with machine engraving. (via Graham Greener)
And as above sold for 10-17 Guineas when new.
Cost to me is $700 Australian, I will probably only want to use it a few times a year for side by side events with target loads. I will get it checked out before I use it.
So you all seem to be right, best I can make out the serial number is 46877 placing it as a 1898? manufacture.
It comes in a leg of mutton case, so I think it will be a fun think to take along to sxs shoots if it works out to be shoot-able.
The seller is a dealer and shot 4 rounds out of it for me to if the primers were well struck - they were.
Also it has 32 inch barrels - that was a bit of a surprise.
Fin2Feather, I can see faint checkering on the grip; I just think that it is well worn away through use. Oddly, Greener guns made for the family memebers were said to be without checkering. Lagopus.....
The 13 would mean that the bore was .710 from Greener, and as Roy stated anything over .719 would be out of proof. Does it have on the top of barrel in oval- Patent Treble Wedge Fast. On rib: St Mary’s Square, Birmingham, England Winner at all Gun Trials 1875-1891.
This gun is referred to as: 16 guinea Facile Princeps F 16 with machine engraving on action. (engine turned)
I have one similar, circa 1892 that has the above and is a 12 ga with 27 1/8" barrels that weighs 6 lbs even. Great to shoot if I could only get used to the safety.
I should get it early next week and can provide more detail.
Thanks very much for the help to date.
Just to clarify,it is not a Facile Princeps but an A&D Action. Note cocking levers protruding from Knuckle and absence of cocking slide under front lump. WWG continued to make an A&D actioned gun until the mid twenties.
Hi Roy,
Sorry I'm late to this game; nothing to add info wise. If you need someone to run a wall thickness gauge and bore diameter gauge over any barrels, I may be able to help. I'm a little bit west of Ballarat, and go to the odd vintagers shoot, if that helps...
RG
Hi RG thanks I sent this one back - too many issues with wear and stock repairs. I have since bought a lovely high grade greener from 1883.
Yes, slap up some pic's there mate!
I'm a sucker for a nice Greener.
Hope you love it
good luck
Franc
Where/who'd it come from? Show and tell time!
RG
If the gun's pre-1887, wouldn't it be marked "not for ball"?
I've been in contact with Graham Greener, current president of the company, directly and asked about the elephant. His reply: "The 'elephant' is our registered trade mark. We don't know exactly when it was first used but certainly it is very early on in W W Greener's gunmaking career and we have guns in our collection from 1864 with the elephant stamped on them."
Bob