Good Morning Gents!
Who made all these look alike rifles? I suppose all these makers put their names on somebody else's rifles?
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Rook-Ri...A2AF14DDECCCC96
Hello Sliver,
Most, if not all of the better known British Gunsmiths offered Rook Rifles for the best part of forty years towards the end of the 19th.C. and the first decade or so of the 20th.C.
Some of these would be bought in, in a part finished condition and the gunmaker would do the final setting up and fitting, then stocked it and engraved their name on the barrel.
Thanks to Wal Winfer it is now known that many of the 'famous names' in British Gunmaking bought actions in and built finished rifles from them. Greener, Webley, Francotte and smaller makers are all suspected, or known, to have been supplying the trade with actions. Army and Navy and perhaps E.M.Reilly & Co just sold complete rifles they had bought in, and all they actually did was engrave their names on finished items.
Most of these are charming little rifles and were very reasonable priced, they were very popular with both landowners and gamekeepers for keeping down vermin at ranges beyond that of a shotgun. Eventually they fell out of use because of improvements in .22 rimfire ammunition, which was also considerably cheaper to buy and just as efficient at the ranges these Rook & Rabbit Rifles were generally used.
The English author Colin Greenwood has a book out on these rifles and their ammunition, and I understand Wal Winfer also has one nearly ready for publication. The rapid increase in prices being paid for these rifles is due mainly to good specimens being hard to come by these days, sadly not all of them were treated with the reverence due to them in the days of BP and early nitro powders and corrosive primers.
Harry
Harry,
Thank you so much for your detailed answer. I have recently acquired one that was made into a 410. Lovely small action. It must have suffered from the same pitted bore disease. It used to be a .250 cal
I believe Webley & Scott may have made the lion's share of them. Woodward retailed a number of such guns.
A lot were rebarrelled to .410 mainly because of availability of suitable ammunition. I have one with Ebrall Bros. name on that was converted to .410 back in 1939/40 according to the proof marks. One of the problems were that they used to have to be included on a Firearms Certificate with stricter requirements than the Shotgun Certificate and as ammo became scarce they were difficult to justify owning so were bored out to .410 or re-tubed to .22rf. Original ones in good order became scarce. Now they are classified as antiques and do not require any certification if just kept as pure collectors items. Anyone can now buy and own them without restriction so that they have become attractive as investment antiques thus driving up the price. I have one just like those shown on the above web site in .360 No.5 calibre which is English make but has no name on. One made in the trade but never sold on to a 'maker' in all probability. It has most of its colour hardening and an octagonal twist steel barrel. I use mine so have them on my Firearms Certificate and make ammo from .38 Special pistol cases. Lovely little guns that would cost a pretty packet to make today. The principal idea behind them was for shooting rooks up in the tree tops. The heavy slow bullet would kill the bird but would not travel far and do damage outside of a narrow radius; England being a crowded place.
Harry, who is Wal Winfer and his book? I would like to get hold of a copy having an interest in Rook rifles. I have Colin Greenwood's book. I just wish he had taken the time to come to one of our twice yearly rook rifle target shoots he would have collected a lot more information and examples to photograph from doubles by Holland & Holland to double pin-fire ones and loads of action types not described in his book. Lagopus.....
Wal and Tom Rowe are making progress on the Rook rifle book the major problem is there are a lot of them. Colin Greenwood's book is a start but Wall's should be much more complete and as Tom is the photographer the pictures will be much better. I helped Tom photograph nearly 100 rook rifles lots of work but I did learn a bit about taking pictures.
Cheers,
Laurie
Lagopus,
Wall is an Australian and has 6 books on English Single Shot rifles published by Tom Rowe. He tries to get as much information as he can so the books are very informative.
Cheers,
Laurie
The primary source for the Rook Rifles of the type seen on the Guns International Web site was; Webley and Scott, Birmingham. These rifles are pictured and described on Page 22 of their July 1st; 1914 wholesale catalogue. I have mint example of this rifle in 297/250 rook engraved, G.Hinton, Gunmaker, Fore Street,Taunton.
Webley and Scott had extensive machine shops and did supply the English tade with actions "in the white" and finished Rook rifles.
Other sources for higher grade hammer rook rifles included W.&C.Scott & Samuel B. Allport both of Birmingham. [In later life Samuel Allport closed down his gun making business to assume the position of Proof master at Birmingham] The actions made by Allport and W.&C. Scott are found on rifles made by Boss, Rigby and others.
I have a Stephen Grant in .380 Center Fire Rook built on a miniature Martini Henry action. Really neat caliber because .380 CF is also 38 Long Colt. This little rifle puts round after round into an inch and a half cluster at 50 yards. My eyes open the groups up to about three inches at 100. It is a really neat, and with its 26 inch barrel, remarkably quiet crow wacker from the back deck.
A friend brough another rook rifle/410 conversion by Boss to show me the other day. Other than the name it was a perfect match to my Perrins - It must have been born in the same factory - It would probably have been worth twice as much at auction but I wouldn't have swapped!!!
Harry, who is Wal Winfer and his book? I would like to get hold of a copy having an interest in Rook rifles. I have Colin Greenwood's book. I just wish he had taken the time to come to one of our twice yearly rook rifle target shoots he would have collected a lot more information and examples to photograph from doubles by Holland & Holland to double pin-fire ones and loads of action types not described in his book. Lagopus.....
Hello Lagopus,
The question has already been answered by another contributor to this thread. Wal Winfers six books on British Falling Block Rifles are superb reference works with masses of pictures, drawings, patent details and Company Histories.
I cannot recommend them highly enough. They are not cheap, averaging £50.00 plus each if you can find them, there are some available from Kynoco?spp. others will have to be searched for on the WWW. To get a complete set your looking at spending in excess of £300.00. Postage on these heavy and large volumes doesn't come cheap either.
None have been reprinted as far as I am aware, and some people are buying them up as an investment. I eagerly await Wal's book on Rook rifles, there's little in Wal's earlier Falling Block Rifle books simply because not many Rook Rifles were made on FB actions.
Harry
Thanks Harry; and everyone else, I will look out for the book becoming available but if you know of a source to try then could you please send me a message and I will try to get hold of one. I will be going to an RR shoot on the 2nd. of October. The person I am going with has a number, some with very odd actions, and a mint double .360 pin-fire by Gates of Derby; cased too! Great fun to shoot. I posted a photo of a double .300 side by side with one barrel .410 by Rosson of Derby quite recently. I only wish that I could have bought more many years ago when they were going for a song. I was offered a .300 Holland & Holland in mint condition and cased about 30 years back for just £30 but then they had to be justified on a Firearms Certificate and that was not easy to do when ammo was not available. I would be worth about £1,000 to £1,500 now. Lagopus.....
The book,"The British Falling Block Breechloading rifle from 1865," Author, Johnathan Kirton. Well illustrated 242 large pages; Published in 1985 by Armory Publications, This is an excellent reference book including inputs from leading authorities in Australia [incuding the Winfer,s],Canada,New Zealand, Norway,South Africa,United Kingdom & U.S.A.Contents include an excellent illustrated review of falling block rifles by leading makers,including related patent drawings.Also of interest is info on the makers business and in some cases the dates of manufacture and rifle performance.
Hi,
I am a new-boy on the block but an old time shooter. You know these rifles and sometimes shotguns all came from the same Belgique Factory and carried the very same pattern on each and everyone. The top of the barrel which if original is octagonal from breech to foresight was manufactured with a plane raised inscription plate into which the purchaser could inscribe his firms name suggesting that this was the maker.
Stephen Grant was a renowned English gun and rifle maker appointed gun-maker to her most gracious majesty, Queen Victoria and of course or perhaps more importantly her Consort Prince Albert and yet Grant too felt that the quality of these imported weapons was sufficient for him to inscribe his firms name and sell them as his weapons. I actually own one of these which was originally a 0.300" Rook Rifle but which has been modernised by boring out the rifling to a finished bore of 0.410" smooth barrelled and hence a shot gun.
For more see "Greener the Gun and It's Development" by W.W. Greener - 1910. Facsimile edition SBN 85368 073 6.
Welcome, Chris, glad to have you aboard.
Mike
I got my Winfer / Rowe Rook rifle book from Shandra's books in Medford, OR. I don't have a phone number. I evidently told them at the Vegas show to call when it came available and they did. Then I promptly lost the phone number. I've had it for a couple weeks. Great book - highly recommended!
Chris,
By far the most informative & interesting book on Rook Rifles,isthe relatively recent publication;
"The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle,"by Colin Greenwood.
The book was published in 2006 by the Crowood Press.in the U.K.
I believe that I purchased my copy from Gunnerman Books,Rochester Hills Mi;tel; 248-608-2856,ask for Carol Barnes.
OK; ignorance hanging out and all that: just what the hell exactly is a Rook Rifle anyway?
a small caliber rifle used to shoot rook, rabbits and other vermin. A rook is a close relative to crows.
Fin2 the idea behind the concept is the shooting of young rooks known as 'Branchers'. The traditional day being 12th. May. Rooks, unlike crows, nest communally in Rookeries; noisey places in springtime. The young rooks are eaten in Rook Pie; the nursery rhyme that referes to 'four and twenty black birds baked in a pie' is with reference to rook pie. Dickens' Pickwick Papers gives a brilliant description of a rook shoot.
With the high angle of fire, and the fact that dear old England is a bit crowded, the concept is to use a heavy bullet at low velocity so that it kills the rook but if missed doesn't go far to cause any damage. Rook shoots are now quite a thing of the past and rarely indulged in. Most rook rifles are single barrel and of various qualities ranging from quite good to superb; I know of at least one double rook rifle made by Holland & Holland in .300 calibre. Power is something like a low velocity pistol round. They are now highly collectable but can still be had for a price much below what a new one would cost. As ammunition became scarce a lot were either bored to .410 shotgun or re-tubed to .22rf. calibre. I have one that has been re-tubed to .32 S&W calibre as well as .410 versions and some original ones including a side by side .300/.410 version. Look out for them and if you find one that is not too expensive then get it. The little single Holland & Holland ones are highly desirable. Lagopu.....
