How many of you have had a fitting done, and then tried to use those numbers to order from another maker, or to buy a gun already made? In my limited expierience with different guns, even from the same maker, length of pull is relavent as is the drop at heel, but it seems the cross sectional profile of the comb makes cast and drop at face very imprecise at best. Larry Brown has been kind enough to let me handle and shoot quite a few different guns . Some I can shoot well some , all of them he shoots well just some better than others, and some we both shoot well. So which is more important, fitting dimensions or actually handling the gun and spending the cost of the fitting on practise?

I had a fitting done several years ago, then had one gun restocked and a few other altered for LOP. I have also ruled out buying guns that didn't come close to my dimensions. It has worked out great for me but I know others don't put much credence in the practice.

JMO, but drop at the face, or comb, is far more important than DAH.That's where your face(and eye is) Pitch is of near zero importance, except to distrubute recoil over the maximum area of your shoulder pocket(where the butt SHOULD be). Very little, if anything, to do with elevation of POI, in spite of often parroted old wives's tales, to the contrary by parrot-like "gun writers" who have never tried anything for themselves, other than plagiarism.

One more thing. If you haven't yet developed a consistent and proper gun mount, fitting is also going to be a waste of money. Like getting a suit tailored while you're gaining, losing weight or drastically changing your everyday posture.

I haven't had a formal fitting, but I do believe it's worth it to someone unsure of his gun fit. While I'll acknowledge that the stock comb profile (width, radius, etc.) has an effect that translates to effective changes in cast, knowing your dimensions for fit still gets you so close, even with this variable, that there is a big benefit compared to not having a clue. Admittedly, the very experienced shooter, that has shot many different guns with many different dimensions, may not benefit much from a fitting.

Many years ago I had a formal fitting with try-gun done. So far it has worked well in custom orders except for Bruchet/Darne where you also suppply body measurements and Bruchet determines how to fit the stock. Since my measurements are very close to what is normally supplied on factory guns, I usually have no problems as long as a gun is close. Of course the final proof is in the shooting and if one has a Proof room such as Kolar, you go in and determine if POI is correct. BTW Kolar fitting at the factory consists of a couple of sessions where they eyeball you with the gun in progress and make the stock but it works. My last custom gun from CSMC made to my dimensions, I didn't even bother to pattern or determine POI but just went and hunted with it. Killed birds from the first shot I ever took with it.
I would strongly advise having a fit done by a competant fitter if contemplating a custom(bespoke gun) and if possible having the gun maker actually do the fit. CSMC doesn't do fitting for whatever the reasons but they make the gun to your supplied dimensions very nicely.
I have watched all manner of shotgun shooters with ill fitting shotguns in the 40+ years of bird hunting I have done. They invariably have ill fitting guns which markedly affects thier ability but then there are the few natural shots who can use anything and hit birds. I am not one of those and require all the help I can get!-Dick

I had a fitting done by Griffin & Howe using their try-gun followed by patterning. At the end of the fitting session I had the fitter measure my Merkel 1620 and let me know how far off the gun was from my custom dimensions.

Next, I determined how far off from my needed dimensions the 1620 was by patterning the gun. I then compared the results of the two different measurement methods. The amount of stock adjustment needed to make the 1620 fit as determined by the fitter and by patterning the gun were the same. I sent the gun off to be bent and the gun shoots very well for me.

I then had a CSMC RBL 20ga made to the G&H dimensions. I wasn't sure how well the G&H dimensions would work with the RBL 20ga because the RBL clearly has a thicker butt than the 1620, but I had never heard that custom dimensions determined by a fitter were gun-specific so I went ahead. Shooting the patterning board shows the completed RBL 20ga to shoot 6" to the left at 20 yds. The thicker butt had indeed required at least a new cast-off dimension. In hindsight I thought to myself "well duh."

I now determine gun fit by shooting the patterning board. This is done with each specific gun I regularly shoot. Where the gun actually prints determines how much stock adjustment is needed. This method automatically accounts for any dimensional idosyncrasies (known or otherwise) a particular gun may have. Plus, it is very easy to do. Verifying the gun "shoots where I look" is a great boost to my confidence in the firearm. The G&H measurements go unused in my desk.

The custom fitting by G&H was a worthwhile experience (don't get me started on my experience with their bending service, though) because it caused me to start paying attention to gun fit and gave me a baseline to start working from. IMHO, however, dimensions from a fitting session are gun-dependent, and will almost always require some amount of fine tuning from one specific gun to another. This leads to the problem of paying for the expense of a custom stock when using dimensions from a previous fitting session which will be only "close" rather than "spot on." I guess "close" is better than "not even close," though, and "close" is good enough for someone who's mount is not consistent. Further, everyone has their own idea of what is "good enough." In other words, YMMV.

In light of my experience, so far, I would not pay to have another fitting done - shooting the patterning board is just too easy and is the final arbiter anyway. The only exception would be if the fitting was by a stockmaker making a stock for me, which would be the ideal situation.

JMHO.

--shinbone

When guns were first invented, the shooter had to adapt to what the maker made. Next, it was discovered that certain stock dimensions made for easier shooting. Then it was discovered that a stock made for an individual (bespoke) was easiest to shoot well. Gradually, those who had great social pressure to shoot well gravitated to a single gunmaker who becme expert in fitting that individual. The relationship of shooter and gunmaker got devalued in the development of manufactured guns, length measuring tools and try guns. The American picture of knowing LOP, drops, and, maybe, cast, seriously short changes a number of small variations in stocking which a gunmaker would adjust to the shooter. So, we are better with custom stocking dimensions, but best with a relationship between the shooter and the stocker. Hopefully, a relationship where the gun is shot at pattern plates extensively and the stock fine tuned before it is declared finished.

IMHO, if you are built so that the "standard" gun deminsions are a good fit for you and you have a good, repeatable mount, you can get along just fine w/o a fitted gun.

Unfortunately for me I am not built so that standard fatory guns fit. My shooting success has dramtically improved after getting a fitted, bespoke gun.
My last purchase, an RBL-28 with CSMC standard deminsions, prevented me from even seeing left to right birds. Too much DAC so that my right master eye couldn't see the bird.After getting the stock bent, I can see the targets fine.
Still have to HIT them, though.

Thank you all for your insight. From my limited expiereance it would seem that a pattern plate is the proof in the pudding, and that while numbers can get you close,you have to shoot the gun to remove the " umeasureable" variables. Thanks so much for your input. Mark

Thanks for a wonderful thread. It adds to the learning experience.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, Ne

Now the next obvious question and one that is in contention is how to pattern a gun to see if POI matches POA.

Do you mount as if you are going to shoot and then aim the gun using the bead?

Do you ignore the bead and just concentrate on the target?

If done right at 16 yards it will tell you how much to bend the stock but if done wrong it is useless.

I always pattern my guns using 3 shots on the same sheet of paper. I mount the gun and shoot like I would at the live bird. This gives me a good idea where I am shooting as an average. Hopefully all three are in roughly the same area. If not, I re-shoot a group of three. Since I am shooting easel paper with 1" squares from the office supply store I can easily see how I need to adjust the stock dimensions to make a specific gun shoot where I am looking. I always shoot at 16 yards to make the calculations easier. Once I get the gun adjusted I may move further back to make any POI that is off center more prominent.

I agree with virtually everything that's been said so far, particularly Mr Legg's comments on pitch being irrelevant to POI
within reason. Another issue that should be laid to rest is the 16yd thing. it's just not right( unless your eye is exactly 33.9" behind the bead). If you think about it the target/plate needs to be 16 X the distance from the bead as the bead is from the eye with the gun mounted. This will then give you the 16:1 ratio to allow 1" of impact adjustment to be achieved with 1/16TH of eye position adjustment.For a 6' person with a sxs using 30" bbls this means they need to be standing nearly 19 yds from the plate. With a semi auto it will be further yet.

Yep....Couldn't been said better.

All the variables can be identified and measured. The problem is that to do so takes more than a short time with a try gun. It takes skilled fitting that is repeated until "done," not just good enough. As I said, a relationship between the stocker and fitter. Those who DIY, can have that relationship to their guns. I does require considerable learning, though, to become good with the skills.

For anyone that shoots a gun, whether fitted by a pro, considering being fitted by a pro, doing it himself, or clueless, I highly recommend reading Michael Yardley's "Gunfitting" book. It's only about 100 pgs and will enlighten you beyond what you would have guessed.

How do you like how your body works? I mean, when you go to step on an ant or use your foot to close a door; do you like how it works? How do you like how your body works when you reach for the shave cream in the morning, or to pick up a pen on the desk? How do you like it when you point at something and you are actually pointing at that something?

Having a gun, fit, is akin to having it be a part of your body; not the guy next to you, or the guy next to him, but your body, your body parts.

If you like how your body parts work together in the types of movements/ activities above, then it is as relevant as having YOUR body parts, not someone else's which you are trying to function and move with.

Hugh:
Why 33.9"? Wouldn't it be 36" for 16:1?

As I understand it, the yard between your eyes and the front bead brings the raport of 16:1 so that the 1" deviation of POI comparative to POA can be corrected in 1:16th change of the stock dimension at the face. That is when you put the front bead at 16 yards from the target.
This method has worked very well for me.

Don't confuse shooting for POI with gun fit. When you're shooting to check POI you want to know where the gun shoots by removing the influence your mount and dimensions have. The best way to do this is to take two quarters and rest them on top of each other. Place them at the rear of the rib just in front of the breech. Aim at a spot on the board by placing the bead so it sits atop the two quarters. You've essentially created a rear sight for the gun. Shoot it like you would a rifle. This will tell you were the gun is shooting and let you be confident with applying your measurements.

It's possible that you may shoot a gun well that doesn't fit. I've found out that this tends to happen when the gun doesn't shoot where it's supposed too and it just so happens that the poor fit compensates for it. For example, the gun is too high for you but the POI is low which essentially cancel each other out.

It's much better to determine POI and then worry about measurements. You may be bale to correct for POI problems by using different dimensions than what the try gun says you should use.

When you're shooting to check POI you want to know where the gun shoots by removing the influence your mount and dimensions have. The best way to do this is to take two quarters and rest them on top of each other. Place them at the rear of the rib just in front of the breech. Aim at a spot on the board by placing the bead so it sits atop the two quarters. You've essentially created a rear sight for the gun. Shoot it like you would a rifle. This will tell you were the gun is shooting and let you be confident with applying your measurements.

It's possible that you may shoot a gun well that doesn't fit. I've found out that this tends to happen when the gun doesn't shoot where it's supposed to and it just so happens that the poor fit compensates for it. For example, the gun is too high for you but the POI is low which essentially cancel each other out.

It's much better to determine POI and then worry about measurements. You may be able to correct for POI problems by using different dimensions than what the try gun says you should use.

I have had several fittings. I needed to revisit the fitting as I got older and larger. Also I found that not all fittings are created equal. Fittings can vary from vague to anal retentive. If they are not taking the time to have you shoot the gun you are wasting your time. POI is a very important part of the fitting process. After all we are bien fit to hit what we are shooting. Mounting a gun is not shooting a gun. Most of us can not get a true fitting just by mounting a gun.

Another thing to look at is the style of shooting and how it will change your fitting needs. A pre-mounted gun and a low gun shooting style are not the same for me in gun fitting. Figure out what style of shooting you are interested in and find someone who understands that style of shooting. A Skeet or Trap expert fitting you for a pre-mounted, high gun style will give you different measurements than a fitter who is looking for a hunting, low gun style. In my case the comb was almost 7/16" difference. So I can not take my clay target guns hunting and have a well fitting gun. While I can shoot my clays guns at Skeet or Trap the lower and shorter stock on my hunting gun seems to invite lifting my head with a missed target the result.

My wife says this is just another excuse to buy more guns. She is right but I tell her the numbers are different and you can not ignore the numbers.

Jon,
Can you elaborate on your formula for buying more guns? I'm losing ground with my formula on my wife.