Without doing anything to the bore/barrels, what can one do to tighten up the pattern out of a cylinder choke? I know shooting harder and larger shot will tighten pattern. Is there any other trick?

moderate velocities and good shotcups go a long way.....

Buffering

When it comes right down to it, there is quite a bit of latitude in load development, that can be manipulated to throw better patterns.
Depending on what you're shooting, the simplist is to just use more pellets...in the black powder muzzleloading world where most smoothbores are indeed cylinder bore, the old saying is still real today:

"Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"

IMO, the modern rifle and shotgun load development have evolved to efficient top performing shells with two fundamental objectives...power and distance...sometimes referred to as "magnumitis". But if I've learned anything shooting Flintlock smoothbores, it is the stark reality that 99% of every shot I take at a crow over decoys, or a squirrel in a tree, or a turkey in front of me is usually just 20-30 yards...we simply do not need Yorktown battleship size shotshell loads for 99% of our shooting.

So explore reconfiguring your wads to fit in another 1/8 or 1/4 oz of the shot sizde you're wanting to use...and, better yet, if you focus on the fact that most shots are a lot closer than you think, you don't need large pellets with massive energy for 40-50 yards shots...#7.5's or worse case 6's do fine for most any game at these relatively close distances.

Good quality copper or nickel plated shot also adds more pellets to the pattern.
And EcoTungsten(Niceshot) gives me significantly more pellets in the pattern than either of those, but is a very expensive non-toxic for waterfowl and I can't afford to shoot it just for any old thing at $28/pound.

Smoothbores are very forgiving...forget the typical modern ballistics listings as if they are cast in stone...they are just optimized loads to include the 40-50 yard shots...you have a lot of choices to tinker with...think in terms of 25-30 yards with a cylinder bore, using a shot size that will give you more pellets in the pattern, and as a penetration test just be sure they'll blow through the metal of a stong tuna or soup can at that distance.

When I was about 13 years old a kid down the road made a fairly common practice of taking his pen knife and cutting fully around and half way through plastic shotshells just at the bottom of the shot charge which allowed the full front portion of the shell to exit the bore. (I DO NOT RECCOMEND THIS!). He got very tight patterns as was evidenced by the door of his mother's mobile home the day he had an accidental discharge with his shotgun. I remember thinking it looked like he had used a rifled slug! The pattern inside of the door was much wider as it completely peppered the entire interior of the bathroom! As result I have always though that a shotcup without petals should throw tighter patterns than those that spread open as they fly? I don't know if one could tape the petals together safely or not for such an experiment?

Thanks for your input, gents.
The barrels are damascus. Although proofed for 3 tons I would shoot lower pressures. I cannot use hard shot like steel or similar, because of possible bore damage.
Quarry is ruffed grouse and pheasants.
Shots are moslty within 30 yards.

To make a cylinder bore 12 gauge kill reliably to 40 yards, load about 1 3/8 ounces of hard shot with a W114 wad and just enough Unique to propel it at about 1100 or 1125 fps. Don't use the normal Blue Dot for this load because at the low velocity, the pressure will not be high enough for reliable cold weather performance.

Couldn't be farther from the truth...

Just so we're clear on the 3 types I mentioned:
Copper plated and nickel plated are not like steel...they are lead pellets with a coating which does not bother a steel bore...used them in my smoothbore Flintlocks for a few years now.

EcoTungsten is literally a direct lead substitute, can be used in any form of and age of gun without shotcups. In fact, one of the saving graces of EcoTungsten is that is is such an identical soft lead substitue that you can use the corresponding "relatively less expensive" lead pellets for load development & pattern testing.
The just fire a couple of insurance shots with EcoTungsten to satisfy your mind that they do indeed pattern the same way.

Silver,
Trap Commander wads from Ballistic products,low pressure loads for velocity of 1100-1200 fps should be just what you're looking for.
Justin

Roundball makes some excellent points. There is a lot that modern shotgun shooters can learn from "the old timers".

Two things that "r.b." did not touch on have to do with shot sizes and powder burning characteristics.

Optimum black powder shotshell loads for cylinder bores (no more than "volume for volume", powder to shot)tend to generate no more than 1100 f.p.s. and, quite often, anywhere from 100 to 250 f.p.s. less than that. To compensate for the reduced pellet energy that is generated by such loads it is a good idea to "come up" one to two shot sizes from "standard loads".

For example, if #6 shot is usually preferred for pheasants then #5 shot would most likely be preferred in "cylinder bore loads". The larger shot size would also indicate heavier shot charges in order to achieve something like the pellet count of the "old" smaller shot size.

Powder burning characteristics are of less moment than shot size but they are worth considering, nonetheless. "Low pressure" powders very often reduce shot deformation and, thus can help to "fill out" cylinder bore patterns. One of the best "l.p." powders is good old black powder, Fg or Ffg granulations preferred. Messy as "the old soot" is, there are good reasons why black powder ("drams equivalent") is still the shotgun powder that sets the standard for all the others.

Loads such have just been described are not limited in their applications to just "c.b." bored guns. They can also be deadly long-range loads in tightly-choked guns when lead or "lead density" shot is used. Both Don Zutz and Gough Thomas wrote about such loads. In a 2 2/4-inch 12-gauge case, for example, such loads would involve a 1 1/2-ounce shot charge sent out at 1100 f.p.s. or less. Zutz opined that the minimum shot size for such loads would be American #4s. (Thomas touted British #4s, which are almost identical to American #5s.) Zutz claimed that American #4s from such loads would be more than capable on large ducks and American #3s and #2s would be more than adequate for geese, assuming proper patterns could be generated in the guns being used.

Like "r.b." I would not be too quick to disparage the shooting abilities of cylider bore guns. Today's Sporting Clays shooters have rediscovered what many of the oldtimers always knew. It is amazing how far open-choked guns can "reach out" when they are properly loaded and when the shooter has confidence in their abilities to do so.

I agree his knowledge of shotguns has greatly increased since May the 8th.

The gun has both barrels opened to cyl. I can definitely use the RB as is and figure out a load for LB to change the pattern to a more IC or even M as desired.
I do have a pound or two of the nice shot which is harder than lead, but not as hard as tungsten.
So the general formula would be:

Heavier load at lower velocities with a harder, larger shot on a forgiving wad and slow burning powder. A buffered load may help keep the pellets together.

Thanks again for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

It's been done for some time now. Pick an emery cloth grade that will roughen the choke more than it is now. Test fire; if you want it tighter; more corse grade emery cloth.

The roughened choke will grab the shot cup; separating it from the pellets and producing a tighter pattern. Shot cups pushing the pellets when leaving the muzzle spread the shot more.

If you want to find out, try patterning one of Federal's loads with their new "Flite Control" wad. It does what you propose - it is a solid tube (no slits or petals) with fins that pop out at the rear after the wad exits the barrel. The fins provide air resistance to the wad, causing it to slow while the shot column continues on to the target. I have no idea how well it works in practice, as I've never tried them, but the first time I saw a diagram of one I was impressed with the theory.

Ron Forsyth writes about "the low velocity principle". Gist is to use larger shot in heavier payloads at lower velocities. When he wrote the article for Rifleman he described using Unique. IIRC, he had #6s at around 1100 fps, #5s at maybe 1050 fps, and #4s at 1000 fps or less.

I had a .000/.005 M21 that I used to take grouse/wc/phez to about 35 yds. I got IC to LM patterns with the B&P High-Phez loads.

I do not understand your comments about steel, unless you are speaking of factory loads and pressure concerns. Your chokes are .000. Assuming you can obtain and load components designed for steel, why can you not use low-pressure non-tox?

Sam

I've not shot any of the Federal Flight Control ammo...In theory it sounds good...there are rumors floating around that the point of impact is not consistent because of the steering effect of the wad.

I've tried some of the un-slit wads by Ballistic Products in a 13 ga. muzzleloader I had...the pattern could be turned into a slug at 25 yards with a point of impact problem. I slit the wad all kinds of different ways and the best I could ever improve the pattern with the wad was by a few pellets at 25 yards. Black Powder and plastic wads don't mix well.

Steel shot can ruin old guns.

Not arguing, just asking for a mechanism. If the shot is contained in appropriate thick shotcups so that there is no scrubbing, loaded to acceptably low pressures, encountering zero constriction at the muzzle - how does it damage the "old gun" in question?

Sam

sort of hard for the shot to "bridge" and cause damage with zero constriction. Almost without variance, the damage that occurs with steel shot comes from tight chokes and large shot. No constriction = no damage in my experience.
Steve

SKB...So you recommend steel shot for any gun without a choke ?

The shot does not stay in the shot cup.....as it's racing down the barrel ahead of the shot cup steel can scratch the bore.

I stand by my load recommendation of an earlier post. I hope that my choice of "hard shot" did not lead anyone to think I was referring to steel or any other no tox shot. I was referring to 1 3/8 ounces of high antimony lead shot propelled at about 1100 to 1125 fps with a powder with the burning characteristics of Unique, possibly as slow as Herco and a firm petalled wad such as the W114. The load should be low pressure, low recoil, friendly to the gun, and should put as much shot in a 40 yard 30" circle as a 1 1/8 ounce 1200 fps out of an improved cylinder barrel. Your comment that your shots are within 30 yards would lead me to believe that you don't have much of a problem to solve.

I endorse Replacement's suggestion for buffering. I added GREX buffering to a 1 1/4 oz turkey load, and improved density by abut 25%. Much cheaper alternative than the exotic metals.

In my opinion a gun with no choke and using plastic shot cups will be just fine with steel shot. When I first recommended hard shot in this thread I was referring to high antimony shot, just like Bill said above.
Steve

If some guy reads this and scratches the hell out of a fine damascus barrel with steel shot are you offering discounts on Teague lining ?


.

How many guns have you seen this happen to? My bet is zero.....kinda like the broken stocks you were warning about the other day? I stand by my opinion. If this was the case every gun out there that had shot steel would be scratched up.....it just is not so.
Steve

You are correct, that scenario will not harm anything but the target

I'm not planning on trying steel shot in any of my vintage guns....I wasn't warning about broken stocks I just asked if you had ever had one break bending it.

Here's a test....

Take that W.C. Scott with "decent bores" you have for sale and shoot a bunch of steel shot through it....it might polish out the pits.

bUll Hockey.

yOu and SKB should hook up...maybe he'll pay you commission on selling Teague lining.

So there we have it, you have never seen it happen yet you are sure that is how it works. Seems pretty typical for your scientific evaluations.....

Hey, Y'all be nice to hOjO...he seems to be trying to improve his social skills...Geo

SKB

I'm on your side. Not scientific, but my brother has fired 100's, if not more, steel loads through his Meriden, bores are still pristine. The first several hundred were high pressure, high velocity loads, mostly 3's and 1's, with an occasional BB--ducks and geese were the targets. Once he shattered his buttstock I convinced him to drop velocity and charge to 1400 fps., 7/8 oz. and 8000# handloads. This gun was originally full and "fuller", chokes were opened up a tad while the gun was being restocked. Don't think I'd subject a $10k gun to the potential for scoring (though I assign this issue to the same bucket as "high base/magnum, low base/soft load) but his hardware gun digests these loads without damage. I'd really like to hear from someone that actually scored a double's bores with steel.

I'll quick put away my soapbox, jOe will pillory me enough for this!

Steve

Gents,

The gun has damascus barrels and while they measure solid they feel delicate. It might be just in my head, but I am not willing to subject her internals to the hardest shot, choke or not. I don't want to take the chance, yet.
I shot it yesterday with 7.5 subsonic F2 B&P and smashed targets out to 30 yards so there might not be a real problem, this cylinder. However, I am interested in learning about the many possibilities involved with changing the loads through same tube.
For that I thank you very much.
In regards to scoring the barrels I think I remember reading one of the manufacturers mentioning that hevy shot or similar hard non toxic can do that to steel barrels. The scratching was mostly esthetic and not structural. But that is a different topic...

That's one of the great benefits of playing with smoothbore muzzleloaders...in essence, your are into the "reloading" aspect every time you prepare each shot right there at the range, not at home at the reloading bench.

There are an infinite number of variations you can tinker with regarding powder types & amounts, wad types, amounts, & configurations, and shot types, sizes, & amounts.

And the REALLY big plus is that doing it real time at the range, you can immediately see the results after each shot on the patterning board...a live fire clinic on shot load variables.

Has anyone tried cream of wheat as a shot buffer and how did it work? : Mike

There have been threads in the past about Cream Of Wheat, but my recollection is that it was being used more as a filler to achieve proper crimping rather than as a buffer. I have not used it, but would think that the density of the stuff compared to synthetic buffers may require dropping a few pellets from the load to stay within charge weight specs.

Thanks...I think.

In the 70´s when I reloaded for geese, I used plain wheat flour as a cushion filler with lead #BB.
The other components were Remington primer and case, a Winchester slow powder (#571???) and a Power Piston (yes, here in Mexico we only had Remington components, but now is worst, because we do not have any!!!)
1-1/2 oz of BB´s was 74 pellets and I put all of them in a 30 inches circle at 40 yds, the mitical 100% pattern with a full choke Mossberg shotgun.

All I said is because the flour works for tighten a pattern, very well indeed!!

Regards,

Jose

I have seen a Browning Superposed 20 Ga. and a Winchester 12 Ga. 101 that both had barrels that were "splined" or scratched by Steel Loads. This was how ever back around 1980-1982, the Steel componets are supposed to be better these days.

My Richland Arms 10 Ga. choked full & fuller shows no signs of damage with steel. It is sort of a clunker, so I don't worry too much about it.

Seems they crossed this bridge years ago...

http://books.google.com/books?id=xrwUAAA...d=1_1#PPA130,M2

here is a good one by guccimo of italy: 12ga 67,5mm case, 28gm 6% antimony shot with nickel plating, velocity 365m/s avg. gp 450bar.

Supermodel?

yeh, just a joke i simply could not resist.

The original question was "How to improve performance of Cyl choke".

1. Get close
2. Get closer


I've always thought that a shotcup designed for steel shot, but useing your favorite lead shot, might produce a tighter pattern in a open choked barrel. Anyone have any experience here?

Chuck

SKB says to shoot steel in all of them.

You may want to take some remedial reading lessons J0e......most of you homeless folks have ample time on your hands.
Steve

I know how to read and sometimes follow instructions...

Did you send Dave his $10 bucks for that Bismuth shot you gave away for $100 bucks in the for sale section ?

Chuck's idea must certainly show some improvement in patterns. I haven't tried it, only because I don't own any such wads.

Bill,
The first two would, for sure. I'm wondering if the shotcup idea would work.

I have the steel shotcup wads, but not the motivation right now.

I have the steel shotcup wads, but not the motivation right now.

The steel shotcup wad idea is the one I was referring to. Great idea with no negatives.